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Author Topic: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 325216 times)

Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #600 on: February 18, 2015, 09:04:06 AM »

Number-crunching time!

DPS
Pulse Laser:  303
Heavy Blaster:  500
Autopulse Laser:  1250 (250)

Without Expanded Magazines, Autopulse Laser has 20 shots, enough for two seconds of sustained fire.  Expanded Magazines raises capacity to 30 shots, for three seconds.

Assuming no Expanded Magazines and constant firing of weapons without interruption...

AutoPulse Laser vs. (medium) Pulse Laser
2500 + 250x = 606 + 303x
53x = 1894
x = 35.7

AutoPulse Laser vs. Heavy Blaster
2500 + 250x = 1000 + 500x
250x = 1500
x = 6

It takes almost 36 seconds before Pulse Laser catches up to AutoPulse Laser, but only six seconds before Heavy Blaster catches up to AutoPulse Laser.  Admittedly, Heavy Blaster generates much flux, and vent spamming (and giving up shields in the process) might be necessary to get full DPS out of blasters.  With Expanded Magazines, the time it takes for medium weapons to catch up is 50% longer.  For example, Heavy Blaster needs nine seconds instead of six to catch up with Autopulse Laser with Expanded Magazines.  Pulse Laser needs more than 53 seconds to catch up.

Remember that Pulse Laser received a larger DPS raise than either Heavy Blaster or Autopulse Laser.  Even that is not enough to overshadow the best weapons that received a lesser bonus.

The reasons to take Autopulse Laser over medium weapons have always been flux efficiency, extra range, and/or a quick burst of 2000 or so damage that can finish off a ship right now.  If you think you need more DPS over a longer period, you are better off with Heavy Blasters or possibly Plasma Cannon since the latter cannot be blocked by missiles now.
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #601 on: February 18, 2015, 09:59:04 AM »

All very well, but keep in mind: that's only a two or three second burst.  In that time, you can maybe kill a ship (if it's a small ship and you've got enough supporting firepower).  Then the next target that comes in?  Plink.  Plink.  Plink.

You know what else can maybe kill one ship?  A torpedo.  You know what a torpedo costs?  Two ordnance points.  So, let's take a look again at pulse laser + torpedo + 8 vents, versus autopulse laser.  And you know what?  The former is going to be better the vast majority of the time.  The problem with the autopulse isn't that it's a terribly bad weapon, it's that it's frequently not worth the opportunity cost of mounting one; putting a pulse laser in gives better sustained DPS, *and* an extra 10 ordnance points to play with; spend those right, and you can more than offset the autopulse's advantages.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #602 on: February 18, 2015, 10:08:10 AM »

You know what else can maybe kill one ship?  A torpedo.

Yeah - once. And even that's not guaranteed since shields can absorb an infinite amount of damage as long as it's delivered in a single instance. How many ships can an Autopulse kill? Literally infinite ships.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 10:09:51 AM by DatonKallandor »
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WKOB

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #603 on: February 18, 2015, 10:10:51 AM »

Oh my god, you people for real never stop.

This isn't multiplayer, it's not a combat simulation, it's an RPG with mildly deep but arcade-like space combat. It doesn't need, nor should it have, perfect balance.
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #604 on: February 18, 2015, 10:20:47 AM »

You know what else can maybe kill one ship?  A torpedo.

Yeah - once. And even that's not guaranteed since shields can absorb an infinite amount of damage as long as it's delivered in a single instance. How many ships can an Autopulse kill? Literally infinite ships.
And you know what else can kill "literally infinite ships"?  A pulse laser.  Such as the above example included.  So maybe you should try thinking about the example presented instead of being uselessly snide?
This isn't multiplayer, it's not a combat simulation, it's an RPG with mildly deep but arcade-like space combat. It doesn't need, nor should it have, perfect balance.
Does not need perfect balance, no.  But that does not mean that balance should not be a goal, nor does it mean that people should not speak up when one weapon is strictly inferior to another.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #605 on: February 18, 2015, 10:22:25 AM »

Only four ships can mount large energy weapons, and they are not good non-homing missile users without high Missile Specialization.  Sunder's missile hardpoints are spaced too far apart for easy Reaper usage (e.g., you want to launch right torpedo but accidentally shot the left).  Apogee shoots missile off at an angle, very awkward unless missile is homing.  Odyssey can use Reapers, if you are used to its mounts.  Paragon missile mounts are buried in the middle, and need lots of speed to take advantage of an opening, something only high Missile Specialization can help with.

Quote
This isn't multiplayer, it's not a combat simulation, it's an RPG with mildly deep but arcade-like space combat. It doesn't need, nor should it have, perfect balance
The game should not have options so powerful that I would be stupid not to take them, even if they break the game.  For example, before hotfix, I would be stupid not to use Doom and FMR Salamander everything to oblivion, before any enemy appears on my screen.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #606 on: February 18, 2015, 10:25:16 AM »

And you know what else can kill "literally infinite ships"?  A pulse laser.  Such as the above example included.  So maybe you should try thinking about the example presented instead of being uselessly snide?
Your example is nonsense - the game doesn't let you magically turn a single large energy hardpoint into a medium and a small. Comparing one hardpoint to two, as though that was a choice the game let you arbitrarily make is pointless, because it doesn't. You can compare different weapon types, and sizes (within certain limits) because universal hardpoints exist and you can put smaller weapons into larger hardpoints. You cannot say "this large weapon is bad because this medium and this small weapon together are better".
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 10:27:59 AM by DatonKallandor »
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #607 on: February 18, 2015, 10:32:54 AM »

@DatonKallandor: The example was to make a point: there are other things to do with your ordnance points, things that can easily offset whatever advantages the autopulse has when you fail to consider the ordnance point cost.  You seem to have missed this fact and are instead focusing on irrelevant minutia - the example was simply pointing out one way to replicate the autopulse's high burst damage.  Also, you totally can put a medium energy weapon into a large slot; without that, this would not be a concern.  (Edit: Oh, nice edit there, removing the bits you had factually wrong.)

@Megas: Amusingly, I use a Sunder with reapers, and find that it works just fine for me.  And yes, I'd be leaving those slots empty if it was worth mounting an autopulse laser; you don't really need multiple sources of burst damage.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 10:37:00 AM by Wyvern »
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #608 on: February 18, 2015, 10:40:33 AM »

On further thought, I feel I should add: This is not the first time that the autopulse and pulse laser have had this problem; several versions ago, the situation was the same as it is now, where one could replace an autopulse with a pulse and find it to be a direct upgrade.  Alex fixed that.  I bring this up so that he can fix it again; as such, convincing the two of you is not a high priority for me.  So present whatever further arguments you like; I have said what needed saying and am done with this topic.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #609 on: February 18, 2015, 10:42:04 AM »

@ Wyvern:  The only missiles I usually use on Sunder is 0 OP Sabot, to force AI to lower shield and eat Plasma Cannon or triple Heavy Blaster/Phase Lance salvo at a critical time.  I need lots of OP for the stats and flux I need (and Light Needlers if I use triple Phase Lance).

EDIT:  I think it is more of a problem with autopulse laser vs. heavy blaster.

EDIT #2:  It was worse in Starfarer when Autopulse only had 15 charges (22 with Expanded Magazines).

EDIT #3:  I prefer Heavy Blaster over Autopulse.  I use Pulse Laser as a substitute when I do not have enough rare heavy blasters to give to all ships.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 10:49:27 AM by Megas »
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orost

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #610 on: February 18, 2015, 11:55:24 AM »

@Megas: what are those 0 OP missiles you speak of?
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #611 on: February 18, 2015, 12:05:42 PM »

@Megas: what are those 0 OP missiles you speak of?
He's talking about single-shot harpoons or sabot SRMs.  Which cost one ordnance point normally, or, if you have the cost reduction from combat skills, zero.  Of course, if you don't pursue combat aptitude, or aren't that high level yet, then there are no zero ordnance point missiles.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

orost

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #612 on: February 18, 2015, 12:07:54 PM »

Thanks, I had no idea the reduction could bring the cost down to 0 OP. Seems OP. (scnr)
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #613 on: February 18, 2015, 12:12:30 PM »

While I would not mind the autopulse getting a small buff (Say 20% more damage AND 20% more OP - for a large slot it is a bit of a "light" gun), I think it is a significantly superior weapon to the pulse laser. It has longer range, better flux efficiency, mildly better armor penetration, and HUGE burst damage. It has a lower sustained DPS... but as Megas showed, it takes 36 (or more) seconds for the Pulse Laser to catch up. And that is if both guns are in continuous, no losing target, no venting firing for 36 seconds - which does not happen very often.
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #614 on: February 18, 2015, 12:17:54 PM »

Thanks, I had no idea the reduction could bring the cost down to 0 OP. Seems OP. (scnr)
Generally agreed; I have a skill rebalance mod I've been tinkering with that replaces the reduced ordnance point cost with reduced weapon flux generation (flagship only).  Seems a better fit for a combat skill.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.
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