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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 325244 times)

Toxcity

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #585 on: February 17, 2015, 03:15:39 PM »

While I generally agree with you, certain weapons like the Mauler were more balanced with the smaller regenerating ammo pool than the are now.
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Unfolder

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #586 on: February 17, 2015, 03:42:28 PM »

Don't have anything moar to say about this version. I'll return when I can manufacture my own damn fleet in my own damn battlestation which will hopefully be able to orbitally bombard the luddics into slavery.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #587 on: February 17, 2015, 05:31:31 PM »

Played with the Phase Lance more.

Despite lower DPS, Phase Lance outperforms Pulse Laser slightly if the beam does not need to hit shields much.  Phase Lance can a better and/or safer choice than Pulse Laser or even Heavy Blaster when your ship meets two conditions:
* Has Advanced Optics hullmod.
* Has enough kinetics (or lots of other firepower) to crush shields quickly.

Without Advanced Optics, range is less than Pulse Laser or Heavy Blaster, since beams do not fade out.  With Advanced Optics, Phase Lance outranges those two staples noticeably.  The only medium weapon that outranges Phase Lance is Graviton Beam, which does much less damage.

Medusa, Eagle, and Doom can mount kinetics to beat down shields quickly (and have spare mounts for viable PD), then zap the enemy ship with Phase Lances for heavy damage, and from greater distance than with pulse lasers or blasters.

I would gladly use Phase Lance on those three ships, provided I unlocked Advanced Optics.  I would not use it on ships that cannot mount kinetics or lots of blasters to beat down shields.  For instance, I would not use Phase Lances on a Wolf, Tempest, or Aurora.

I still think Phase Lance should get 50 or 100 more range, enough to more-or-less match Pulse Laser's maximum range, such that I would consider mounting it instead of Pulse Laser if I do not have Advanced Optics.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 05:38:45 PM by Megas »
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Cycerin

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #588 on: February 17, 2015, 05:47:52 PM »

A really good Phase Lance ship seems to be the Eagle, with three Light Needlers or Heavy ACs up front and then three Phase Lances, it's really effective.

While I generally agree with you, certain weapons like the Mauler were more balanced with the smaller regenerating ammo pool than the are now.

Hence, my argument is that something should be implemented to balance the weapon in its stead.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 05:49:24 PM by Cycerin »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #589 on: February 17, 2015, 06:12:36 PM »

I would use one among three heavy autocannons, HMGs, or heavy needlers on the Eagle, and railguns or light needlers on Medusa or Doom.

For Heavy Mauler, if it needs to be weakened, I suggest raising its OP cost to 13, to match Hypervelocity Driver, and maybe slightly lower DPS by 20 or so points.  Assault Chaingun has terrible accuracy and short enough range that Heavy Mauler will always be highly desired.  Personally, I rather leave Heavy Mauler the way it is and make Assault Chaingun better by giving it better accuracy and 800 range.
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xenoargh

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #590 on: February 17, 2015, 07:45:14 PM »

Quote
Pilums were not the only missiles that became overpowered with MS 10.
Well, that kind of illustrated my point, yeah.  It's a matter of degree, not an absolute thing.

Quote
Pilums got a bit too good with the previous-version buff and regenerating ammo, anyway. If they were useful, unskilled, in outright killing enemy frigates by themselves, then that's performing rather beyond their intended role. Outright replacing Harpoons with Missile Spec is another symptom of the same - and, really, they could replace Harpoon Pods vs larger targets without Missile Spec.
I don't recall you changing Pilums' speeds when you buffed the missiles last time, though- just their hitpoints and damage.  I could be wrong, I've slept since then :)

Anyhow, for Pilums, speed is extremely important; without it, they cannot catch certain ships before their motors burn out.

More importantly, in fleet actions, a slow missile is PD fodder.  20 of them, 40, it kind of doesn't matter, once speeds are low enough- AOE PD eats them much more easily then.

And nobody was saying, "a single Pilum is a frigate killer" here; the issue, with any missiles, is "what happens when you can bring 4+ launchers to bear on a target", because that's when things start getting weird.

A single Harpoon Pod is not a real threat to any Frigate with shields, unless it's absolutely Flux-locked... 5 fired at a Frigate, with Missile Specialization 10 is dangerous, because that may push even a zero-flux Frigate into Overload... and 20 is enough to kill a lot of Cruisers, even without Missile Specialization 10. 

Missiles scale very differently, because they're alpha spikes and even against an Onslaught, it doesn't take more than two to clear the armor blocks- and then the serious damage happens.

If missiles that actually work is a real issue, but they need to work in order to preserve the feel, why not simply make PD work better, to preserve the other part of the feel, i.e. capships that don't really care a lot about anything that's not a torpedo? 

That's another option that works, and it doesn't need to be a DPS buff; an OnHit() projectile / beam buff against Missiles as a class is straightforward.  That's how I ended up dealing with this in Vacuum, the last time I went down the rabbit hole.  Honestly, though, I think I'm getting close to having all this mess balanced over here; it can be shifted (for example, doubling all the missile timers, to feel more like 0.65) without ruining missiles in their special role or needing any of them to have ammo limits, too; the issue has always largely been balancing missiles against each other for OP costs while leaving them functionally able to do what they're designed to do, rather than trying to compare them with anything else.
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Delta7

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #591 on: February 17, 2015, 08:44:22 PM »

ok, now i played the patch and i have to say... not quite as horrid as i though... except it is. fast missile rack salamanders are terrifying. ultra long range beam weapons are game breaking. the reduced range of the HIL (at least i think, havent tried it yet, but i hear it is) is pointless and wrong. i could easily solo an enforcer with a grav beam wolf+ harpoons even before the patch in a flux war, now i laugh at them. before i needed to watch my ammo on my heavy autocannons and pillium missiles on my archer class destroyer (SS+) in prolonged engagements, and i needed to strategize. now i sit at the back of the map, set my missile weapon group to autofire, press the F key in between volleys, and watch as my enemies burn under a ceaseless barrage of long range death the moment my scout fighters spot the first target. ballistics are now more powerful than energy weapons, and the only ballistics i would like to have unlimited ammo (point defense) dont. light machine guns lack regenerating ammo, so now i have to rely on much less versatile vulcan cannons, or fly into battle wondering how i have a never ending supply of heavy autocannon shells, each nearly the size of a small interceptor, yet i can only hold a thousand rounds of machine gun ammo per mount.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 08:52:24 PM by Delta7 »
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Toxcity

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #592 on: February 17, 2015, 09:27:13 PM »

I'm pretty sure LMGs have unlimited ammo. You might not be playing the hotfix.
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Wyvern

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #593 on: February 17, 2015, 11:48:26 PM »

Hm.  Minor problem: the Autopulse Laser is once again in a state where, for some ship configurations, a pulse laser is a flat upgrade.  Notably higher sustained DPS, and the extra 10 ordnance points more than offset the autopulse's slightly higher flux efficiency.  The burst damage is nice, and it does have slightly more range... but not enough to really matter, and if you're not packing expanded magazines, or if you are flying something that can't back off to recover charges, then it's the sustained DPS that counts.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #594 on: February 18, 2015, 12:01:21 AM »

The Autopulse Laser is adept at forcing up enemy flux, lest they take a ton of damage on their armor/hull.  1250 DPS for 2-3 seconds is no joke.
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TJJ

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #595 on: February 18, 2015, 04:03:07 AM »

The Autopulse Laser is adept at forcing up enemy flux, lest they take a ton of damage on their armor/hull.  1250 DPS for 2-3 seconds is no joke.

If it was better at cracking armour, I'd agree.
However even an enforcer can tank a full barrage from 2 autopulses onto its armour without fretting too much.

The one saving grace is that the AI doesn't seem to appreciate this fact, and will happily absorb the damage onto a lacklustre shield instead.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #596 on: February 18, 2015, 05:17:50 AM »

Autopulse Laser needs Expanded Magazines.  I do not have time now to post the calculations when medium weapons overtake autopulse DPS.  Pulse Laser takes a while before it catches up, but the Heavy Blaster catches up fast.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #597 on: February 18, 2015, 06:49:02 AM »

Yeah, I can see how that'd work. I do like limited ammo for Harpoons, Reapers, and the like, though - it adds an extra layer to the decision whether to fire them beyond immediate tactical considerations, and to me that makes it much more interesting. It also lets them be stronger weapons, with a higher player reward for skilled use. FWIW, I tried regenerating ammo for Harpoons and absolutely hated it, though that's obviously subjective to some degree.

Despite also being missiles, I think Salamanders and Pilums are just in a very different category with regards to how they're used.

I've found that a 90 second reload, scaling slightly downward with launcher size to reward bigger launchers (or maybe even longer, but that's what I went with) on Reapers, with a scaling refire (I chose 30, 25, 20 respectively) to prevent +ammo skill abuse to still make you really think about when to use them works really well.

Similarly, a 20/15/20x4 refire on the guided missiles (to prevent +ammo for putting burst damage through the roof) with a reload somewhere around 60/50/90x4 for single/triple/pod versions was long enough for you really not to want to waste a missile and make you play carefully when your are "out" - and that kind of reload time still makes you want to have +ammo skills.

The long refire also makes "missile ships" with a lot of individual missile mounts significantly different from "ships that have some missiles" because more mounts means a big increase in missile density per volley. While also making the fire rate bonuses from skills (and CR? High CR gives fire rate right?) a really big deal for all missiles, as opposed to just the few that have long reload times like Pilums and Salamanders.

Quite a few good side effects to it too: The AI also works quite well with this, it boosts Buffalo mk2s to "can't ignore just because they fired their missiles because they'll reload eventually", Wolves are quite a lot less crazy because they can't empty their entire missile racks at the start and Swarmers (5s x4 refire, 10s x4 reload seemed okay, but is probably too punishing for fighters) are a decent middle-of-the-road option for stuff like Hammerheads, hitting less hard than Harpoons but giving you some HE pressure and fighter defense.
As opposed to Swarmers currently being completely overshadowed by salamanders - no reason to take a utility small mount missile that doesn't regen when you can take salamanders.

Incidentally, I think Proximity Charge Launcher should just get the Point Defense tag and behavior - it's really the only thing they're good at (and they are really good at it if they're on a missile hardpoint that can pivot!).
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 07:12:26 AM by DatonKallandor »
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TJJ

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #598 on: February 18, 2015, 07:27:19 AM »

As opposed to Swarmers currently being completely overshadowed by salamanders - no reason to take a utility small mount missile that doesn't regen when you can take salamanders.

Eh?

If anything, it's Swarmers that are overshadowing Annihilators!

Since Swarmers became HE, they've been my go to small missile in Frigates/Destroyers/Light Cruisers.

- DPS comparable to Annihilators once misses are factored in.
- Damaging enough vs frigates (where Harpoons are often overkill), and with far better guidance.
- Obviously best anti-fighter missile.

Granted they're weak against capital ships, cruisers & heavily armoured destroyers, but such targets are typically slow enough that your main guns can deal with it.

I like the niche that the new Salamaders fulfill, but their function is so radically different to Swarmers that I don't think they overshadow them at all.  (even with infinite ammo)

Incidentally, I think Proximity Charge Launcher should just get the Point Defense tag and behavior - it's really the only thing they're good at (and they are really good at it if they're on a missile hardpoint that can pivot!).

This I agree with; though often they're so effective as blanket PD/fighter slaughter, it feels like cheating.
Perhaps they should be toned down a little.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 07:30:06 AM by TJJ »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #599 on: February 18, 2015, 07:46:30 AM »

In 0.65.1, Swarmers were good.  If you have 20+ frigates with Swarmers, even they can threaten large ships because there are so many, and they passthrough allied ships - useful when ships cannot attack any other way due to friends in the line-of-fire.  Swarmers have twice as much total DPS as Harpoons, and much less likely to be wasted, not to mention 1 OP cheaper than a measly rack of three Harpoons.  Harpoons are only good as alpha-strike or finishers.  Swarmers are better if you need more damage during a longer battle.

In 0.65.2 pre-hotfix, Salamanders regenerated, and did enough damage to compete with Harpoons once armor was gone, and armor will be gone after getting shot numerous times by missiles and lasers from many ships.  They outperformed Swarmers and Harpoons in every way.

After the hotfix, Salamander barely do more damage than one Swarmer (out of four) and only if it hits hull.  They are only good for disabling a ship's engines.  If you need to pile on more damage than yet more EMP, Swarmers are better.  Salamanders are still useful, but not at dealing hull damage.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 07:48:08 AM by Megas »
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