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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 325271 times)

EI

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #405 on: February 10, 2015, 07:08:57 PM »

Hmm.

That would make Protonus' missile ships look too powerful, since they normally dedicate themselves with missile mounts at a certain number. Mostly large ones!
)o)
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You know what happens when I raise the "alarm"~ <3

Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #406 on: February 10, 2015, 07:12:57 PM »

All the playership needs are either small or medium Salamanders and Fast Missile Racks, and maybe Missile Specialization 10 to make those Salamanders fast and strong.

P.S. Enemy shields are not a problem, since player can stand off from long range, enough so that the enemy will not raise shields until player shoots at the ship.  Player shoots Salamanders.  If enemy ship has front shields, it is toast.  If it has omni-shields, it is still toast because it cannot block all of the missiles; it might raise shields toward the front, Salamanders loop, enemy drops shields then tries to raise shields in the back, but by then it is too late because missiles have hit.

P.P.S. With Fast Missile Racks, the player can launch Salamanders non-stop, and the AI cannot defend against that.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 07:18:22 PM by Megas »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #407 on: February 10, 2015, 07:23:14 PM »

Maybe another way to limit Fast Missile Racks and unlimited missile abuse is to put Fast Missile Racks on a timer, so that player can launch a double salvo quickly, but not be able to vent spam unlimited missiles as if firing a hypothetical long-range homing blaster.
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Protonus

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #408 on: February 10, 2015, 07:25:30 PM »

Or simply put a charge limit on the Fast Reload, up to 2, similar to what drones and teleportation would normally have.
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The cookies are a weird one, okay.

Nanao-kun

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #409 on: February 10, 2015, 07:33:01 PM »

I've never played Starsector like a scrub before, so I've never encountered these kinds of problems. :-X
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #410 on: February 10, 2015, 07:51:28 PM »

Sweet! Update!

I think I might be an old fogey - every time I install a new version I archive the mods I had installed in case I want something later. And upon checking, I had 0 mods for the latest version, even though I could have sworn I had at least half a dozen.

Edit: First impressions: The beam changes are good so far. The tac laser has even less punch now that the flux bonus isn't there, but man that range. Anything unshielded (I haven't yet encountered fighters) is in for harassment and pain. The mildly increased range on the regular beam PD nicely balances their effectively less damage.

Ended for the night right after getting a pair of Vigilances. LRM spam is still excellent. I'm so glad these ships have gone from "meh" a few versions ago to being absolutely beastly support ships.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 08:48:10 PM by Thaago »
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #411 on: February 10, 2015, 10:35:54 PM »

I'm so glad I gave FMR charges in SS+.
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Histidine

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #412 on: February 11, 2015, 04:28:17 AM »

Why would the universal interstellar currency (which is shared even between hostile-to-each-other factions) be aligned with a specific nation of the pre-space era?
It was a joke, really. $ is so ubiquitous as a generic currency symbol that when someone uses something else, like the euro one, it's considered unusual.

Although I wrote the original post thinking that Starsector previously used the $ symbol for credits. Went back and checked a screenshot, and it's actually a colón. Huh.


(Also, I just noticed the front page images were changed; when did this happen?)
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #413 on: February 11, 2015, 07:59:35 AM »

The missile changes are a good first step, but they don't go nearly far enough. Every missile needs to work on the same ammo-regeneration system (either the Salamander fire-rate limited one, or the Pilums regenerating ammo - depending on role or whatever is easier to balance) - it stops them from being binary Overpowered-Useless and it's a great balancing lever.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #414 on: February 11, 2015, 08:42:26 AM »

The missile changes are a good first step, but they don't go nearly far enough. Every missile needs to work on the same ammo-regeneration system (either the Salamander fire-rate limited one, or the Pilums regenerating ammo - depending on role or whatever is easier to balance) - it stops them from being binary Overpowered-Useless and it's a great balancing lever.
While I'll concede that it's a valid way to balance a game, it would also turn SS into the most boring space shooter ever. The kind that don't reward the player piloting skills and situational awareness because it's a RTS balance mechanic: it makes sense when you have no direct player control, and the units fire everything all the time in all situations to avoid micromanagement. I sure hope Starsector won't turn into one someday.
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #415 on: February 11, 2015, 08:47:00 AM »

The FMR + Salamander could be fixed without changes to the FMR system at all. Simply have the "reloading" of the salamander be in its ammo count, not the time until next fire (if that makes sense, I think I'm forgetting a term).
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #416 on: February 11, 2015, 09:21:21 AM »

While I'll concede that it's a valid way to balance a game, it would also turn SS into the most boring space shooter ever. The kind that don't reward the player piloting skills and situational awareness because it's a RTS balance mechanic: it makes sense when you have no direct player control, and the units fire everything all the time in all situations to avoid micromanagement. I sure hope Starsector won't turn into one someday.

Ridiculous - and easily disproven by the fact that non-missile weapons already work that way - and guess what? It hasn't turned into that. Flux, slow fire rates, fire rates higher than ammo regen rates, limit on damage spikes through special ability cooldowns - all of these things combine in the various combat situations the game provides to make "always fire" not the best option, and in many cases actively detrimental. Especially missiles benefit enormously from non-constant fire because a stream of missiles is less likely to overwhelm most (non AoE) point defense compared to a large single wave of them.

Proper meaningful cooldowns on missile fire rate also means rate of fire skills actually mean something for missile weapons, without breaking them since no matter how fast your fire rate gets eventually you'll be limited by the rate of regen (which by the way, opens up another tactical option - not to fire and build up reserves for a bigger damage spike later).

Incidentally, the regenerating ammo system also means there can now be skills and hullmods to speed up ammo generation (hell maybe even at the cost of extra supplies - it can all be tied together neatly). Oh yeah and +max missile ammo isn't the be-all end-all skill for missiles anymore - it simply opens up extra tactical options (bigger spikes, more benefit from longer pauses) instead of straight up increasing the amount of damage you can do in a fight with the OP you spent by a fixed value (that is, as long as missile rates of fire are meaningful - the current ultra-fast fire rates are bad, have always been bad and are made worse by regenerating ammo pools).
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 09:38:03 AM by DatonKallandor »
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Tartiflette

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #417 on: February 11, 2015, 09:50:39 AM »

I won't enter a contest of argument/counter arguments, I'll just add that all your text say that you want a MOBA/RTS gameplay, and I don't agree with this. Oh and completely disagree with your constant grand claims here or on SA that "your way is the only way". But there are enough balanced games out there that already proves that.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #418 on: February 11, 2015, 09:52:00 AM »

You guys do realize Alex already tried DatonKallandor's suggestion and ruled it out, right?
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes
« Reply #419 on: February 11, 2015, 10:37:30 AM »

You guys do realize Alex already tried DatonKallandor's suggestion and ruled it out, right?

That would be incredibly strange, since the current implementation is weird at best - it screams placeholder and experiment.

It's two different versions of trying to do the same thing, implemented on a wildly varying (in terms of role and performance), tiny subset of missiles. There is nothing logical about which missiles got the regenerating ammo and which didn't (and which got one version of regenerating ammo and which got the other).

Pilums, already one of the best missiles and one of the few to use a meaningful cooldown to limit it instead of ammo - it's ammo reserves are huge compared to other missiles - got higher fire rate than ammo regeneration treatment.

Salamanders, another of the best missile types which was hard ammo limited, with a fire rate that was so fast as to be meaningless (the opposite design framework Pilums had) got the fire rate adjusted and the ammo system removed entirely.

Hurricane MIRVs, one of the worse missile types but which benefited outrageously from missile ammo skills and then became pretty good got the Pilum treatment.
Yet no other missile was touched, despite many of them sharing the same fundamental problems (or lack of problems) of the missiles that did get regenerating ammo.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 10:44:15 AM by DatonKallandor »
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