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Author Topic: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 325231 times)

Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #225 on: December 14, 2014, 09:27:41 AM »

Other than HIL and tachyon lance, many ballistics match beams (without Advanced Optics) on range.  Advanced Optics is costly to get.

Tactical laser has 600 range now, same or less than most non-PD light ballistics (railgun has 700, light needler has 800).  Graviton beam has 800 range now, matching most medium ballistics.  Phase beam has only 700, matching inferior medium ballistics and less than the rest.  Maulers and HVDs outrange all medium beams.

Starter Wolf without Advanced Optics is awful because it is very hard to keep beams on the enemy without them shooting back for hard flux, while your beams do only soft flux.
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Captain Pugh

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #226 on: December 14, 2014, 10:27:36 AM »

Yeah, I'm really happy with most beams having their range pushed out, and taking fewer OPs; but would like there to be a fairly linear progression from small, through medium, to large.  The progression is: larger mount and more OPs means longer range or/and damage, higher flux, slower tracking mount.  I'd be happy if there was a 1000m small beam, but one that competed with the Tac Laser by being lower dam/flux, with a slower tracking rate, and leave the Tac Laser as is.  From there, Phase Beam would have more range, then Grav Beam slightly (it makes sense for the anti-shield weapon to reach further than generic energy beams of the same size or smaller), then HIL, then TL.

Another problem with the HIL in a turret, compared to the TL, is when using Advanced Optics (AOs) that you mentioned.  The further reduced tracking speed of the HIL, which is slower than the TL's for some reason, makes it shoot wild off into empty space sometimes.  TL tends to be better behaved.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #227 on: December 14, 2014, 10:39:24 AM »

Advanced Optics slows the turn rate of weapons as per description.  Tactical lasers, slow as they are, become useless as PD (if enabled by IPDAI) once they get Advanced Optics, at least without Advanced Turret Gyros.
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Captain Pugh

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #228 on: December 14, 2014, 10:47:26 AM »

Indeed, though AOs affects some weapons more seriously than others.  I like a few Tac Lasers littered around my hull since they're good at killing fighters; and pretty much stopped using AOs the second I got the ITU... I find it more expensive and more trouble than it's worth - though does help out the Starter Wolf (and the likes of the Sunder) nicely in the earlier game, as you say.
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Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #229 on: December 14, 2014, 01:25:36 PM »

What i'm trying to say is that while hard-hitting weapons like blasters and plasma cannons are obviously great, they are also geared toward a different playstyle

Right, and an experienced player with that aggressive play stile can kill more enemies in less time, and with less ships. Seen that way, you can also think of the beam change as buffing the defensive, flux conservative play stile and preserving its role in an optimized fleet. At least theoretically, let's see how it turns out. 

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Lucian Greymark

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #230 on: December 14, 2014, 10:26:42 PM »

When the patch notes first came out I was excited about the beam weapon changes, but after thinking about it a bit I've revised my position.

What i'm trying to say is that while hard-hitting weapons like blasters and plasma cannons are obviously great, they are also geared toward a different playstyle

Right, and an experienced player with that aggressive play stile can kill more enemies in less time, and with less ships. Seen that way, you can also think of the beam change as buffing the defensive, flux conservative play stile and preserving its role in an optimized fleet. At least theoretically, let's see how it turns out. 



This would be fine, except flux conservative defensive play isn't really a thing now because we have to rush about all over the place to deal with the enemy fleet quickly. I'm still holding final judgement for the release but I'm anticipating having to shelve my typical beam boat fleet for a more offensive blaster heavy fleet, especially now that beam weapons are essentially just losing damage now

Though many beam weapons have been improved in the patch by the nature of the range increase they have however been nerfed across the board compared to ballistic weapons, which now have infinite ammunition, missiles, some of which now also have ammunition, and other energy weapons which now do more damage across the board compared to beam weapons, furthermore with the induction of cr timers across 90% of the ships the long term fights that the weaker beam weapons would necessitate are now impractical, inefficient and ultimately not worth while.

It's a disappointment all around 
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Captain Pugh

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #231 on: December 15, 2014, 04:29:34 AM »

I do personally prefer the aesthetics and playstyle of beams, but they just don't cut it in the endgame (IMO)... so it's with some regret that I've ditched most* of my beams in favour of blaster type weapons now.

I wonder if it's a deliberate design choice that there's a flow with energy weapons as you progress?: the Heavy Blaster (HB) is way too much weapon/flux for the Starter Wolf (IMO) and she's better served with the Grav Beam, Tac Lasers and LRPDs and Advanced Optics (AOs).  Similarly (though with different beams) for any Tempests and Sunders you might captain along the way, and any Falcons and Eagles when you first get them... eventually shifting to the ITU being your range booster hullmod.

But by the time you get to the likes of the Apogee, with better flux management plus the skills you now have that increase OPs and flux management ability, then beams become mostly obsolescent (given the bounty fleets that you're now facing) and you naturally move to Plasma Cannon and Blasters?  If you still use the Wolf at that point, only now she can properly handle that HB that you started with (IMO).

Dunno, but seems that way to me.  I guess the main point being that I'd absolutely love beams to be a bit more viable in the endgame, but if it's a design choice that the above flow happens, then so it goes.  Getting a bit sick of hearing that constant 'Pew pew pew' of my numerous Plasma Cannon though - beams sound (and look) much cooler! :D

*Pretty much the only beams I use now are TLs on Cap ships, lots of LRPDs (the effectiveness/flux energy PD sweet spot IMO, though I know that some disagree), and the odd Tac Laser for anti-fighter use.  Felt a bit sad slapping LRPDs into the Apogee's medium turrets, rather than any of the medium options, but she's a far better ship/build with that layout; she can then focus her flux allowance on the business end... though this is too minmax for my tastes, loving more balanced builds as I do, but can't be helped since the flux margins are pretty tight....
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Captain Pugh

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #232 on: December 15, 2014, 06:24:05 AM »

What you have to consider when you say "I love beams weapons [already]" is that Sector is not a mutiplayer game, so you never have to directly compare your play stile and loadouts to other players'. While beams do work nicely in many situations, hard hitting weapons like blasters are plain superior in most situations. When you begin to optimize your ships more and more you will inevitably gravitate toward such weapons (provided your play stile enables them). Maybe this update will change that.

They are only superior if you don't miss. Which is one reason I think beam weapons are powerful already. If you miss with blaster shots (like the high damage, high flux ones that the apogee has), you are spending a lot of flux for POTENTIAL damage (at a shorter range, as well! - very few of the hard hitting weapons have the same range as beam weapons). Hard hitting is great, but that's what high explosive ballistic rounds are for, or the antimatter blaster, IMO. Beam weapons are great for constant pressure on the enemy. Softening them up, as it were. I don't see why I would inevitably "gravitate toward [hard hitting] weapons" when their purposes are very different.  I mean, for example...one of the cheesiest, but most effective loadouts (again, IMO) for the Medusa is 4 tactical lasers + 2 dual blasters.  The tactical lasers generate a healthy amount of flux on the enemy's shields for frigates and some destroyers, and a few blaster shots can get them to overload (possibly), in addition to Sabot missiles as well (perhaps) in the universal slots.  But the DPS of the blasters is dangerous, because you can cause your own ship to overload on flux because of how much they generate. However, if you have 2 phase beams + 4 tactical lasers + <just about anything> in the two universal slots, you not only keep building flux on the enemy's shields (for much less cost on your own flux, and at greater range), you can keep a constant stream of damage on the enemy when his shields overload, or he takes them down to vent flux. I will admit, though, that 2 phase beams will probably take longer than 2 dual blasters, provided you aren't too aggressive with the blasters (i.e. endangering yourself to overloading on flux).

What i'm trying to say is that while hard-hitting weapons like blasters and plasma cannons are obviously great, they are also geared toward a different playstyle (as you mentioned yourself) and that a good player in a nimble ship can mitigate a lot of blaster/ammo-based damage while keeping continuing DPS via beam weapons on the enemy with little effort, whether AI or human. And maybe it isn't enough to take the ship down alone, but how often do you fight the enemy (outside of simulations) when you are the only ship engaged? Even from the beginning of a campaign, having 2 ships is leaps and bounds better than 1 lonely ship trying to fight/trade/bounty hunt its way up the food chain. It is literally a game-changer. Likewise, I think that beams can already be game-changers...giving most of them 1000 range just seems a bit too much, considering even 800 would be an upgrade for most of them. And if they all have 800 range, that is still "synergistic", right?

Thank you for responding to my post, though! Please tell me more about what you think / what I'm forgetting or not considering / etc!

I've indirectly gone into some of this, above, but to be less indirect.... :)

I thought exactly as you do for pretty much the entire game until I hit the endgame; then you're up against some serious bounty fleets/ships and there are a few crossover points, I found... though one of the many things that I love about this game is that it does support so many different playstyles and builds so YMMV.

1 You're much more likely to be up against enemies that can slaughter your nimble ships.  Some very good players, with younger reflexes better than mine can still prevail, but I can't and hate to lose ships.  The very nimble ships that you mention can be a bit of an exception to the rule, as you say, but the endgame's hard on 'em unless you're a very, very good player - so that exception's out of the picture for me.  It's now time for more durable and solid ships, which aren't as nimble (mostly Apogees and Odysseys for me now, with the remarkable Apogee being my flagship);

2 Enemy ships are hitting you harder, which is increasing your flux - and it's even worse since it's hard flux.  The longer it takes to kill them, the more (hard) flux you're taking: This more than offsets the flux benefits of more flux-efficient beams that take longer to drop enemies.  There's a crossover point in the curve where using high (soft as far as you're concerned) flux but fast killing weapons yields a lower net flux to you than using the more flux efficient weapons but taking extra (hard) flux damage to your shields.  You end up with less flux and it's much faster/easier to dissipate.  Get in, kill a ship or two or three fast, back off and drop shields (don't even need to vent most of the time), get back in and repeat.

It's also more flux efficient to fully kill an enemy ship once you've gone to the trouble of taking out its shields, than to leave it alive and able to get its shields back up all over again;

3 Yup your allies help, but they also get in the way if you move to the more durable/less nimble ships - and the beam kiting style needs lots of room all around to work.  Once you're up against enemy Tempests, Medusas and Phase Frigates everywhere around you (or just a ton of Wolves, Lashers and Hounds), backed up with some heavier and dangerous ships in front of you, and your space to back away is closed down by your fleet behind and to the sides, then it's also better to make space quickly (by killing your immediately local enemies fast), since there isn't much 'safe' and free space to be had, to briefly cool down,  otherwise.

Your firing lines also get cluttered by your fleetmates and wrecks, so it's important to hit very fast and hard when a gap presents itself.

Just a few things I found anyway: When I eventually get an Astral for this Lvl 50 Admiral, I'll play with that for a bit then give this Admiral a break, and start a new captain who plays very differently... be interesting to see if my conclusions hold true there.

Cheers.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #233 on: December 15, 2014, 08:12:50 AM »

I agree with Captain Pugh's points.  They explain why I favor blasters (over other energy weapons) so much.  Also, such weapons are usually slow firing and either fire quick bursts (heavy needler or plasma cannon) or single high damage shots (mauler, HVD, mining/heavy blaster) and enable vent spamming (i.e., fire, vent, fire, vent, repeat) very well.

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*Pretty much the only beams I use now are TLs on Cap ships, lots of LRPDs (the effectiveness/flux energy PD sweet spot IMO, though I know that some disagree), and the odd Tac Laser for anti-fighter use.  Felt a bit sad slapping LRPDs into the Apogee's medium turrets, rather than any of the medium options, but she's a far better ship/build with that layout; she can then focus her flux allowance on the business end... though this is too minmax for my tastes, loving more balanced builds as I do, but can't be helped since the flux margins are pretty tight....
For beams, I use Tachyon Lances (less than before due to buggy autozoom), (Heavy) Burst PD if I have the OP to spare, and LR PDs when I do not have enough OP or burst PDs to spare.  If I have Advanced Optics, I may use regular PD laser on a Wolf.  I sometimes put Graviton Beams on an Eagle, and Tactical Laser on phase frigates to deal with fighters.

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1 You're much more likely to be up against enemies that can slaughter your nimble ships.  Some very good players, with younger reflexes better than mine can still prevail, but I can't and hate to lose ships.  The very nimble ships that you mention can be a bit of an exception to the rule, as you say, but the endgame's hard on 'em unless you're a very, very good player - so that exception's out of the picture for me.  It's now time for more durable and solid ships, which aren't as nimble (mostly Apogees and Odysseys for me now, with the remarkable Apogee being my flagship);
What I notice is the enemy flagship is the backbone of the enemy fleet.  Kill it fast, and the rest of the enemy fleet is not that hard if your fleet is better than theirs.  I can bring a frigate horde of over thirty ships and usually destroy the remaining fleet without casualties if the enemy flagship has been removed first.  As for the enemy flagship, Hyperion is great for removing enemy flagships if Hyperion has Missile Specialization 10 and Reapers, but if that is not an option, I deploy an Onslaught (or Paragon, if handy) first and alone, then deploy my frigates seconds later after my Onslaught starts blasting enemy ships.

Quote
When I eventually get an Astral for this Lvl 50 Admiral, I'll play with that for a bit then give this Admiral a break, and start a new captain who plays very differently... be interesting to see if my conclusions hold true there.
Good luck getting an Astral.  I made it to level 71 and never found a single Astral, even after cleaning out Tibicena numerous times and bought about twenty Paragon or Odyssey ships.  I do not know if the Astral can even spawn in Tri-Tachyon fleets; I did not see one (but I have seen Paragon and Odyssey) or else I would consider attacking such a fleet just to board their Astral.
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jupjupy

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #234 on: December 15, 2014, 11:04:08 AM »

Mmh.

Can't say I like the removal of the bonus flux, but I've never actually used it tactically, so I really can't complain. A flat 25% boost to my blaster and pulse laser damage is good, but doesnt this support vent spamming?

Agree with beam weapon changes. They were really bleh for me before.

Now ammo is where I disagree. While I cant really say anything final before playing it myself, I view ammo as a very strong component in choosing my weapon loadouts, and how it affects my playstyle in certain battles. For example, I deviate towards the ever-expensive Heavy Needler because it has staying power in long battles (also because I dislike the poof-poof-poof sound of the Heavy Autocannon). But this changes things.

The Gauss Cannon - one may argue it is ever unused because of its dreadfully low magazine size - is suddenly a better choice than the Storm Needler in most occasions. It costs 3 less OP, has 1.5x the range, and is much better against armor.

And yet, I place the Gauss Cannon on many of my support ships, simply because it has the longer range. The ammo was what defined it, it was what made me stop and think - Should I risk it? The removal of this entire mechanic (with a few exceptions) would, in my opinion, make ballistic weaponry ever similar to that of energy weaponry. The only difference now between my Heavy Blaster and an Arbalest is the fact that one deals kinetic damage and trades OP cost and flux for a far crappier damage number. You could say thats a lot already, but I dont think removal of features is the way to go.

I'd infact, argue that it IS a major balancing thing. For me, at least. I tend to shun ballistic weapons in favor of energy ones, because I dont have to worry about ammunition. My battles tend to be long, and I can easily run out. But thats the trade off - while a ballistic weapon would make it easy for me to manage my flux, I trade off worrying about ammunition for worrying about flux, which I can easily rectify. Take this out of the ball game, and I think I'll find myself deviating back to ballistics, because I wont have to worry about either in my Eagle.
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ThePirateKing

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #235 on: December 15, 2014, 07:21:52 PM »


    • Ships
      • Destroyers and cruisers now have a peak effectiveness timer like frigates
        • Roughly 5-7 minutes for destroyers and 7-9 for cruisers
        • High-tech/faster ships have shorter timers
      • Sunder: increased top speed, acceleration, and flux capacity. Reduced shield efficiency.
      • Brawler/Shepherd: increased burn level by 1 (to 6)
      • Condor: reduced supplies/day by 1 (to 4)

    Will the Brawler still have an unlimited combat timer?  It seems like that will be a bit overpowered, considering now even cruisers won't have that ability.  Maybe it should just be longer than the average frigate combat timer, closer to that of a destroyer?

    And reduced shield efficiency on the Sunder?  It wasn't great to begin with, now it seems there's no reason to ever use one.[/list]
    « Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 07:31:41 PM by ThePirateKing »
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    Captain Pugh

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    Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
    « Reply #236 on: December 16, 2014, 07:04:41 AM »

    For beams, I use Tachyon Lances (less than before due to buggy autozoom), (Heavy) Burst PD if I have the OP to spare, and LR PDs when I do not have enough OP or burst PDs to spare.  If I have Advanced Optics, I may use regular PD laser on a Wolf.  I sometimes put Graviton Beams on an Eagle, and Tactical Laser on phase frigates to deal with fighters.

    I've read about the autozoom problem with TLs but haven't encountered it since I don't use that feature.  I give my Paragon TLs all around (including one up front as LR chase armament), with a Plasma Cannon (PC) also up front which I control, and put the TLs on autofire and leave 'em to it.  Similarly, I put an autofire TL on each side of my Odysseys, with a manually controlled PC in the port aft slot.  They seem to do pretty well without using any zoom business, so I leave 'em be.  Maybe you could try something like this to alleviate your problem?

    If I use an Eagle, I tend to use a mix of Grav Beams and Phase Beams; but I don't use the Eagle or Falcon... IMO possibly the two worst ships in the game (genuinely no offence to those who love them, YMMV etc).  I was very excited about reaching the Cruiser stage of the game, and had high hopes for those two beautiful Cruisers... and ended up keeping my Sunder as my flagship, and Hammerheads as my rank and file line units until I started to get Apogees and Odysseys.

    I think that this update will make those two Cruisers even worse, as Cruisers will now have CR timers and the already meager firepower/range gap between medium and small beams will shrink much further.  Like I mentioned way up above, theoretically put a Hammerhead head to head against a Falcon.  All weapons cancel except the Falcon's 2x medium beams vs the Hammerhead's 2x small beams forward.  In reason and realism, the two medium mounts very noticeably outgun and outrange the two small ones... right?  Not as it stands now, and still less so after the patch.

    The Eagle's three medium (beam) mounts should be a ferocious amount of firepower... but isn't at all.  I personally think that there are lots of balance issues where these two ships are concerned, where they're kind of the worst of both worlds (in that space between the excellent Destroyers and excellent Cap ships), rather than best.  A lot of that is beyond the scope of this topic but if these Cruisers didn't have CR timers then they'd be relatively less bad (though the higher tech Cruisers could still have the timer, to reflect their higher maintenance loads, if that timer really had to happen...), and a large part of what makes them so comparatively feeble is how anaemic medium beams are compared to small or large ones - both of which are firmly within the topic's bounds.

    [Lol, look at me not wanting to get told off for being 'Off Topic'. :D ]

    Quote
    What I notice is the enemy flagship is the backbone of the enemy fleet.  Kill it fast, and the rest of the enemy fleet is not that hard if your fleet is better than theirs.  I can bring a frigate horde of over thirty ships and usually destroy the remaining fleet without casualties if the enemy flagship has been removed first.  As for the enemy flagship, Hyperion is great for removing enemy flagships if Hyperion has Missile Specialization 10 and Reapers, but if that is not an option, I deploy an Onslaught (or Paragon, if handy) first and alone, then deploy my frigates seconds later after my Onslaught starts blasting enemy ships.

    A lot of folks' comments here are heavily shaped by their playstyles, so it's good for those to be explicitly stated; so Alex has a better idea where each person/opinion is coming from.  I never use the reinforcements system, and go in with the fleet I need up front - taking care to balance that with keeping some ships fresh for the second pursuit battle that often happens, to catch the faster units that retreated etc.  The Flagship I choose at the beginning of the battle is the one I finish in, unless it gets destroyed (which it almost never does).  For whatever that info might be worth *shrug*.  I guess that it's an indication of how important immersion/realism is to me - and I'm not just saying that.  Not that I have any issue at all with those who choose to play differently: This game supports many styles - awesome! 8)

    Quote
    Good luck getting an Astral.  I made it to level 71 and never found a single Astral, even after cleaning out Tibicena numerous times and bought about twenty Paragon or Odyssey ships.  I do not know if the Astral can even spawn in Tri-Tachyon fleets; I did not see one (but I have seen Paragon and Odyssey) or else I would consider attacking such a fleet just to board their Astral.

    Ugh, I didn't realise it could take that long.  My entire play from Lvl 40 to 50 has been: Buy all the ships from the Tri-Tach shipyard at Tibicena, scuttle most of them, do the bounties rounds in one go, come back to Tibicena, repeat.  Much as I'd love an Astral to play with for a bit (which chances are I probably won't be into too much after the excitement and novelty's worn off), not sure I'm up for another 21+ levels of this grind. ;D

    Just while I'm here, and in the name of efficiency, can I be briefly indulged in a kind of 'Off Topic' question, having already used the Search function?  The only other rare ship I don't have is the Conquest - I'm guessing that they only ever drop at the Sindria military shipyard, but is that the case?

    I see that they're going to be added to Sindrian fleets, but my Admiral prides herself in her perfect relations with all factions (except the pirate vermin, natch :D), so won't be attacking any main factions to try to snaffle their ships.

    Cheers.  
    « Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 10:24:45 AM by Captain Pugh »
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    Megas

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    Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
    « Reply #237 on: December 16, 2014, 09:04:42 AM »

    @ Captain Pugh:  Eagle can be good, although now, it is not as powerful as Dominator or Aurora because the Eagle cannot mount near as many missiles as those two.

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    The Eagle's three medium (beam) mounts should be a ferocious amount of firepower... but isn't at all.
    It is if you put heavy blasters in them, but that requires max Combat and Technology to get the necessary OP and flux stats to support it, and only when controlled by player (because AI cannot manage its flux).  It plays much more aggressively than long-ranged and more efficient configurations.  Better firepower than Aurora without any missiles, but pales to an Aurora with missiles powered up by high Missile Specialization.

    Quote
    A lot of folks' comments here are heavily shaped by their playstyles, so it's good for those to be explicitly stated; so Alex has a better idea where each person/opinion is coming from.  I never use the reinforcements system, and go in with the fleet I need up front - taking care to balance that with keeping some ships fresh for the second pursuit battle that often happens, to catch the faster units that retreated etc.  The Flagship I choose at the beginning of the battle is the one I finish in, unless it gets destroyed (which it almost never does).  For whatever that info might be worth *shrug*.
    That does not work if you want to pilot a slow ship, but want to get to the killer enemy flagship before your faster (and much weaker) ships do.  If everything gets deployed at once, then slow ships are placed at the rear, and the fast ships up front will try to engage anything in their way unless you order them not to, which is not feasible if you want to capture objectives.

    I do not pursue because I do not want Vengeful relations with any faction.  In addition, if I get the option to Stand Down, I always take it to recover CR.  Giving up pursuit for CR is a no-brainer.

    EDIT:
    Until the next update, Conquests are not for sale anywhere.  (Alex says Black Markets can sell them.)  They rarely spawn as flagships for Independent deserter fleets.  If you see one, and your game is not Ironman, save-scum until you board that ship!
    « Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 09:10:26 AM by Megas »
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    Midnight Kitsune

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    Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
    « Reply #238 on: December 16, 2014, 03:02:56 PM »

    EDIT:
    Until the next update, Conquests are not for sale anywhere.  (Alex says Black Markets can sell them.)  They rarely spawn as flagships for Independent deserter fleets.  If you see one, and your game is not Ironman, save-scum until you board that ship!
    One other boost is to destroy all of the wrecks except the conquest so that only it can be chosen
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    Megas

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    Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
    « Reply #239 on: December 16, 2014, 03:15:20 PM »

    Even so, player may likely need to save-scum for the Conquest given how... random boarding results after a hard dock can be.
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