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Author Topic: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 332748 times)

arcibalde

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #120 on: December 06, 2014, 09:25:38 AM »

Isn't there a column in ship_data.csv where you can remove time limit on ships? Just a sec...    >>peak CR sec<< This thingy :D  So if someone dont like change at least its easy removable.
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #121 on: December 06, 2014, 09:47:20 AM »

@ Histidine: That is a reason why I prefer hard caps over soft caps.  "No, you leveled high enough, you don't need 30 more levels because you can and have the drive to do it to feed your lust for power."

As for my Augmented Engines topic, I do not do that much for frigates in space in the endgame, once my character is extremely wealthy, but instead I do much swapping of engines on Atlases and other freighters (at stations) so I can buy and carry as much food as possible from Tartessus to Askonia, or supplies from Jangala to Asharu or Tibicena.  Swapping Augmented Engines on and off for 20+ freighters is a chore, but in-game time is often of essence, especially for trade disruptions.  While profit in credits are great, the real reward is the experience and levels for more AP/SP, not credits.
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Gaizokubanou

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #122 on: December 06, 2014, 11:17:27 AM »

So it is bad, very bad. And if dev thought process is like this, I do not know what future arbitrary limitation will come if he can not balance some other mechanics.

But all games are all about arbitrary limitations that are presented in form of ruleset.
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Uomoz

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #123 on: December 06, 2014, 11:50:34 AM »

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DarthWiki/RuinedFOREVER

Seriously.

I really think everyone is blowing this whole CR thing waaaay out of proportion. How many fights are actually going to have 5-7-9+ minutes of engaged combat? My longest frigate fights (single frigate flagship vs 3 destroyers + escorts or a cruiser + escorts, I don't play as high level as Megas et al. so I don't take on defense fleets with them. Or I'm just not as good :P) will have me start to take CR loss, but not enough to malfunction.

Also, Alex has already implemented the suggestion (from this very thread, I believe) of the timer on destroyers and cruisers only ticking with sufficient forces around - no time limit from those pesky single frigates/fighters at all. I really don't think the time limit is going to be an issue.

Time limits may feel arbitrary, but they are also simple, which is a very good thing. Its really easy to understand: "This ship lasts X long in combat. You can push it by some, but it starts to degrade".

... Making people be more pressured to do something, or to balance the bad AI, with arbitrary limitation  is just the worst possible way.
 ...

I'd like to point out that every rule in every game is arbitrary. A game is the arbitrary limitations put together over some setting (which is just more limitations, though we don't usually think in that manner).

A lot of fights I have take a long time. And I do not play anymore with frigates because of the time limit as I often get lower CR.

Time limit is simple, do you know what is even more simple and easy to understand? Not having one, especially as it has some very strange rules when its on or off.

The point here is, because the dev doesnt know how to improve the AI, he is implementing a limitation in time. And he is doing it only because some people are abusing the AI and are playing a battle for 30 min and kiting *** of the AI. Because of them he is implementing something that will have a direct impact on my play style and how I play. If people want to abuse AI, let them. This is not a MMO where there is some player vs player competition, this is a offline single player game, you will not be able to prevent abusing mechanic (and if they do it for 40 min I dont see any problem with that), and trying to balance something like that with implementing very doubtful limitation is very bad in my book.

So it is bad, very bad. And if dev thought process is like this, I do not know what future arbitrary limitation will come if he can not balance some other mechanics.

Every step should be taken in order to make so the game respects the dev idea of gameplay. If Alex don't like the idea of slow grind battles to be the most optimal way to play the game, he should make so it's not the optimal way to play the game. In the end for as much is not a MMO, it's still his game, and if the feel of urgency granted by CR degradation is what he likes to play with who are you to deny the implementation of it?
If you don't like vanilla, you can play the dozens of mods that currently and eventually will offer a lot of different gameplay directions, of even simply remove the cr timers yourself with a very simple csv edit. Saying something on the line of "I do not know what future arbitrary limitation will come if he can not balance some other mechanics" tells a lot about your knowledge of game design, and is simply rude.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 11:52:25 AM by Uomoz »
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miljan

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #124 on: December 06, 2014, 12:23:58 PM »



Every step should be taken in order to make so the game respects the dev idea of gameplay. If Alex don't like the idea of slow grind battles to be the most optimal way to play the game, he should make so it's not the optimal way to play the game. In the end for as much is not a MMO, it's still his game, and if the feel of urgency granted by CR degradation is what he likes to play with who are you to deny the implementation of it?
If you don't like vanilla, you can play the dozens of mods that currently and eventually will offer a lot of different gameplay directions, of even simply remove the cr timers yourself with a very simple csv edit. Saying something on the line of "I do not know what future arbitrary limitation will come if he can not balance some other mechanics" tells a lot about your knowledge of game design, and is simply rude.

Rude or not that is how it is. I am giving feedback on thing that I think are wrong. Normally its his game, and he will do what he want with it. And every one of us here is giving feedback to the game or direction where the game is going. Not you or anyone else should stop anyone from giving feedback, positive or negative. There are mods, and they will fix the problem, but as I said i am very worried what will future bring and there is nothing rude in it, looking at how he implemented some things.
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Zapier

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #125 on: December 06, 2014, 12:25:11 PM »

Quote from: Uomoz
It's still his game, and if the feel of urgency granted by CR degradation is what he likes to play with who are you to deny the implementation of it?

The customer? The guy who forked out fifteen bucks for the game and would like it to not be ruined? Please remember that the objective of a developer is not to make the game to their own precise interests, but to the interests of the many people who paid hard-earned money for a game they expect to become better, not worse.

What do you say to the other customers who don't mind or even like the changes? Is their money worth less than yours? Be careful when you start trying to say a customer is more important than the developer because then you will need to start splitting hairs about which customer's opinions are worth more than others.

Put another way, I'd wonder if any of us other paying customers have ever suggested things you don't like either... would you feel satisfied that those changes were put in as long as it was because of a customer asking for it? Developers are not slaves to their customers, especially when they're going to great lengths to make sure much of it is very moddable.
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oorek

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #126 on: December 06, 2014, 12:27:55 PM »

Quote from: Zapier
What do you say to the other customers who don't mind or even like the changes?

They are clearly in the minority based on the replies to this thread. As a developer you shouldn't cater to some small group of people just because they'll mindlessly defend you whenever you make a *** change to the game.

There is no rational way to defend this patch. It's casualization to really cater to those people who feel intimidated by anything more complex than 'point at enemy and shoot.' Casuals can't play around ammo? Remove it. Casuals can't utilize flux damage boost? Remove it. Casuals can't understand how to fight fast ships? Give everything CR degredation.

This patch is a disgusting step backwards. It's an obvious attempt to dumb down the game for people who'd be more suited playing something else.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2014, 12:31:29 PM by oorek »
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Uomoz

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #127 on: December 06, 2014, 12:30:43 PM »



Every step should be taken in order to make so the game respects the dev idea of gameplay. If Alex don't like the idea of slow grind battles to be the most optimal way to play the game, he should make so it's not the optimal way to play the game. In the end for as much is not a MMO, it's still his game, and if the feel of urgency granted by CR degradation is what he likes to play with who are you to deny the implementation of it?
If you don't like vanilla, you can play the dozens of mods that currently and eventually will offer a lot of different gameplay directions, of even simply remove the cr timers yourself with a very simple csv edit. Saying something on the line of "I do not know what future arbitrary limitation will come if he can not balance some other mechanics" tells a lot about your knowledge of game design, and is simply rude.

Rude or not that is how it is. I am giving feedback on thing that I think are wrong. Normally its his game, and he will do what he want with it. And every one of us here is giving feedback to the game or direction where the game is going. Not you or anyone else should stop anyone from giving feedback, positive or negative. There are mods, and they will fix the problem, but as I said i am very worried what will future bring and there is nothing rude in it, looking at how he implemented some things.

Mhh, I think you didn't properly my post. I didn't even remotely tell you to stop, i just want to remind everyone that rude posts are easily skipped by an interested viewer, over proper criticism with a decent reasoning.

Quote from: Zapier
What do you say to the other customers who don't mind or even like the changes?

They are clearly in the minority based on the replies to this thread. As a developer you shouldn't cater to some small group of people just because they'll mindlessly defend you whenever you make a *** change to the game.

If that was the general rule over the internet, the vocal minorities would easily win all the arguments and decide. Luckily for everyone, this isn't the case here.
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oorek

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #128 on: December 06, 2014, 12:36:10 PM »

Quote from: Uomoz
If that was the general rule over the internet, the vocal minorities would easily win all the arguments and decide. Luckily for everyone, this isn't the case here.

'vocal minority' has to be the most sickeningly overused buzzword lately. There is such a thing as a vocal majority, and guess what: that's what this is. Stop latching on to this 'vocal minority' bogeyman that lingers in every dark corner of every Internet argument, waiting to be slapped onto the opposing side as soon as the other one realizes it's outnumbered.
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Zapier

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #129 on: December 06, 2014, 12:36:52 PM »

Quote from: Zapier
What do you say to the other customers who don't mind or even like the changes?

They are clearly in the minority based on the replies to this thread. As a developer you shouldn't cater to some small group of people just because they'll mindlessly defend you whenever you make a *** change to the game.

I've never ever seen actual surveys and numbers collected on opinions, yay or nay and how much of the community is in this thread or other threads voicing opinions so I'll take the minority part with a grain of salt.  As a developer you also shouldn't be pressured by those who sound the loudest in forums or anywhere else, since as a friend of mine used to say, people that are happy with the game are generally playing it or waiting for the next step. Those who are unhappy with it are the ones typically voicing their opinion. People who maybe like the changes or are indifferent about them might not say anything because they don't need to which can lead to a skewed view of who is really the minority or not. Either way, minority or not, the game is still being developed and we've had updates in the past where things went one way and then the next patch it's been reversed because it didn't work out so well.

Do you have the right to be concerned about the patch notes? Most definitely. Have you tested how the game plays with said patch notes? I highly doubt it since it's dev patch notes. We voice our concerns and then test the patch and if most people feel validated then it can be reversed. Nothing is set in stone and as some have pointed out, it can easily be modded out by the wonderful modding community.

I was concerned initially by the patch notes, but I also read Alex's thoughts on it and I'm willing to give it a shot because that's what I've done with all the previous patches. Overall, I still enjoy the game immensely and feel it's going in a good direction.
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Chronosfear

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #130 on: December 06, 2014, 12:51:45 PM »

heavy changes  in starsector battles.

I´m ok with most of them , since some were announced a while ago.
I'm good with peak times , every minute ( "in game a hour or longer maybe ) of battle is stress for crew and ship ( crew does mistakes without breaks ) , circuits running a 120% is to much on the long run and so on.
The "unlimited" ammo for ballistic weapons are ok , but I hoped for a "magazine" style of play .. x shots , wait x sec then again x shots with a manual reload ability
and I hoped it would count for all weapons , including torpedoes ( with a probably terrible long timer )
might need additional weapon balancing . but currently it feels only half thought out.

since it´s the first info .
Many changes are following.


Things are never as bad as they seem.

e.g Frigate peak timer had a hard time when it was announced. But we adapted.
Alex and staff are doing the best to give us a great game and experience!


Chronosfear
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #131 on: December 06, 2014, 12:54:41 PM »

Time limit is simple, do you know what is even more simple and easy to understand? Not having one, especially as it has some very strange rules when its on or off.

The complexity of the rules around it is a fair point, and is the main thing that's giving me pause here.


The point here is, because the dev doesnt know how to improve the AI, he is implementing a limitation in time. And he is doing it only because some people are abusing the AI and are playing a battle for 30 min and kiting *** of the AI. Because of them he is implementing something that will have a direct impact on my play style and how I play. If people want to abuse AI, let them. This is not a MMO where there is some player vs player competition, this is a offline single player game, you will not be able to prevent abusing mechanic (and if they do it for 40 min I dont see any problem with that), and trying to balance something like that with implementing very doubtful limitation is very bad in my book.

So it is bad, very bad. And if dev thought process is like this, I do not know what future arbitrary limitation will come if he can not balance some other mechanics.

The AI and the rules of the game are two parts of the same coin; expecting to have an arbitrarily good AI for *any given ruleset* is simply unrealistic. The two have to work together. Some mechanics, while a good idea in, say, a PvP game, are not something any (reasonably real-time) AI can handle, period. Aside from that, some mechanics the AI has problems with aren't an AI issue to begin with. For example, if you put a human player in a slower ship, they're going to get kited too, so that clearly isn't an AI problem. Of course, the AI could try some tactics to counter that (and it does), but ultimately it's an uphill battle because of the mechanics. Thus, the motivation for making mechanical changes to address the problem. You're welcome to question/disagree/dislike the actual mechanical chages, of course. My point here is that regardless of how you feel about the specific changes, it's definitely more a mechanics issue rather than an AI issue, and that further the two are much more intertwined than one might think. They have to work together to produce a good result.

As far as balance overall, the ideal is that the player trying to play the game optimally is able to have fun. Ultimately that's a large part of games (well, most games) - learning how to play, and improving. If, as you improve, you realize that your best options are un-fun (e.g. kite for 30 minutes), that's a big problem for a game's longevity and replay value. Of course, since we're talking about "fun", that's a subjective call to make.




>Destroyers and cruisers now have a peak effectiveness timer like frigates

Wow, this change is particularly awful. Forcing players to play with a timer on every battle. I'll definitely be modding this out every patch. All the combat changes in this patch are terrible, but I can't even remotely understand the mindset behind this and the change to energy weapon flux damage bonuses. Energy weapons were already strictly inferior and now they're just a total joke.

You're welcome to, of course, though I hope you'll give it a shot as-is. I suspect you'll find it's not nearly the issue it's made out to be, in terms of how it actually plays out. For the reasoning behind the changes, you might consider reading some of my prior responses in this thread - most of it is laid out there. If you still have some questions, please feel free to ask.


The customer? The guy who forked out fifteen bucks for the game and would like it to not be ruined? Please remember that the objective of a developer is not to make the game to their own precise interests, but to the interests of the many people who paid hard-earned money for a game they expect to become better, not worse.

Just on a general note, while I appreciate the support, and couldn't be doing this without it, that still doesn't ah, grant voting rights to customers. I listen to feedback, and am thankful for it (and have made many changes based on it in the past), but ultimately it's a question of what makes sense to me, and the direction I'd like to take the game in.

I will say that your post isn't... how can I put this. It doesn't give me much to work with, in terms of useful information. It kind of boils down to "everything is terrible", which is certainly an opinion you have a right to hold. On the other hand, it doesn't tell me anything about *why* you think so. Obviously I disagree (or I wouldn't have made the changes in the first place!), but if I'm to change my mind, simply knowing we disagree isn't particularly helpful. In general, saying *why* you don't like something is a million times more likely to produce results than simply saying you don't like it.


Also: everyone, please try to refrain from anything even shading into personal attacks on each other, before moderation action has to be taken. Flinging around stuff like "casuals" or "vocal minority" isn't helping matters any.
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Toxcity

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #132 on: December 06, 2014, 01:09:45 PM »

Most of the changes are okay, but I disagree that all cruisers and destroyers should have CR timers. The only one that should is the Medusa.  Its the only destroyer that is able to outrun Frigates and kite easily.

>Destroyers and cruisers now have a peak effectiveness timer like frigates

Wow, this change is particularly awful. Forcing players to play with a timer on every battle. I'll definitely be modding this out every patch. All the combat changes in this patch are terrible, but I can't even remotely understand the mindset behind this and the change to energy weapon flux damage bonuses. Energy weapons were already strictly inferior and now they're just a total joke.

This comes after the patch where fighters got nerfed into uselessness. Really not liking where the game is headed.

Have we been playing the same game? Fighters may have lost their 0-flux boost but they have had their logistics costs halved. Plus they're still very useful. Thunders are excellent support fighters, that are able to disable ships and fighters, and provide a good amount of fire power with their missiles. Broadswords can chew through shields. Daggers were made viable in 0.65a.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #133 on: December 06, 2014, 01:20:56 PM »

'vocal minority' has to be the most sickeningly overused buzzword lately. There is such a thing as a vocal majority, and guess what: that's what this is.

Prove. It.

The general statistics indicate that people on forums are the minority of consumers of a video game. That's just a fact. Is it true for Starsector as well? We don't know - only the person with access to the sales numbers and forum statistics does - but we can infer from the general trends.

Now that this topic has been handled the other big issue nowadays is the ridiculous entitlement of buyers of games brought on by the age of early access that somehow buying something means you get to be co-developer. It doesn't. The developer makes the game. You get to play what they make, not decide how it's made.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #134 on: December 06, 2014, 01:24:52 PM »

'vocal minority' has to be the most sickeningly overused buzzword lately. There is such a thing as a vocal majority, and guess what: that's what this is.

Prove. It.

Please, let's not start some sort of measuring contest.

As I alluded to in the previous post, the results wouldn't matter anyway - what matters are the whys of things, not the numbers.
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