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Author Topic: Starsector 0.65.2a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 325215 times)

Zaphide

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2014, 11:14:29 PM »


Suggested fix:  force all of the player's fleet to be deployed, up to X DP, and do not allow reinforcements.  The whole concept of reinforcement in a space battle never made a lot of sense; instead, just force the player to decide what ships are possibly going to get killed and force them to deal with it.  That means no more endless-frigate nonsense, but it'd mean real changes would have to be made to how Command Points worked.


I'd just like to highlight this idea. I really like it as it would eliminate the gamey fleet-of-one-type-of-frigate-deployed-one-at-a-time. At the risk of just parroting xenoargh here, reinforcements didn't really make sense either. I think it'd place more weight on the players shoulders at deployment time. Going small to save deployment costs is a lot more permanent when you can't panic and fall back to your freshly deployed Conquest if the battle turns the other way. My only issue is that it increases risk without really increasing reward, but I can live with that given that the risks are firmly in the player's hands.

I also like this idea; perhaps still allow reinforcements but at double (or something) the CR hit if called in after battle starts?

Could also be expanded by having ships in "heightened readiness" at deployment; minor up front CR loss (like 0.3 of normal deploy cost), but can be deployed as reinforcements without the double hit (so perhaps ends up as 1.3x the usual cost).

Just (likely not well though out) ideas :)

..............

Anyways, as for the actual patch changes, I only ever really consider ammo count when fitting ships; in combat it was never really a consideration of not firing (except for a couple of weapons). Perhaps removing ammo will also allow for other balance changes or differentiation to happen down the track easier?

Not really a fan of having extra key bindings for reloading both per weapon and reload all... :P
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Dri

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2014, 11:25:06 PM »

I really liked the cool visual effect when energy weapon turrets would glow the more flux you had... can you still keep that in there even though it doesn't increase damage anymore?
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biotic

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2014, 02:38:43 AM »

Can't say i agree with the some changes, whats bugging me is the regenerating ammo.
Rather then make these changes to help the ai, why not make a better ai... more win that way.

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Linnis

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2014, 03:08:38 AM »

Unlimited ballistics is a good move, only thing that really ran out of ammo anyways were flack and vulcans, aside from you in a lasher trying to solo whole fleets where I don't think that was the goal of Alex in the first place.

For those who are wondering, 1000 range on beams will define the difference between ballistics and beams, not ammo anymore. The range is quite interesting, it would make fighting and using beam type ships a lot different.


But what about the blaster type weapons? do they still receive flux damage bonus?

What about swarmer? Since they are tiny missiles should they also regenerate? Because most fighters easily refit them and spam them nonstop
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 03:17:22 AM by Linnis »
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Tartiflette

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2014, 03:49:37 AM »

After cooling down from my initial reaction, I'll try to explain why I'm surprised by this changes:
If anything I'd expected quite the opposite! It flatten the differences between ships and weapons slots making choices now more cosmetics rather than tactical.
Most of the weapons changes are "to remove useless mechanics". Well in my opinion they were not useless, just under-exploited.

   You say the ammo limitation was not useful in most case, well that is true in the current vanilla balance. But what if suddenly we get to choose between a Hellbore with 50 ammo and less flux, or a Hephaistos with 1000 and highter flux? Suddenly one is the perfect short battle weapon, but quickly become useless in long engagement. There is now an interesting choice to make. In mods we could try even more radical changes that might not be fit for vanilla, like extreme range weapon extremely ammo limited that are only useful to apply pressure on a single ship and have to retreat afterward. To me unlimited ammo could only make sense for PD weapons.
   With unlimited ammo, I don't see the point to buy high tech ships except maybe a frigate for player use, because low tech ships cost less, are more sturdy and can't run dry anymore. (yeah I'm over dramatizing but still...)

   The beam range makes sense, they clearly needed an edge and a long range is definitively a strong one! (though now, you incentive players to get back to the "kite-for-hours-in-a-frigate" type of gameplay, switching ships when the CR counter run out) But then there is the removal of the flux boost, making them act closer to the ballistic. I agree with the fact that the bonus wasn't obvious enough to make a noticeable difference, but then why not push thing further instead of cutting it down? Like 25% damage at high flux, and 25%+ damage when the shields are not raised? (because of some sort of "energy interference" caused by the shield generator or some technobable) Suddenly, forcing a high-tech ship at high flux to drop it's shield makes it a much more dangerous enemy, even if it takes a beating doing so. It would help high-tech to clear some space before venting when now they are basically screwed if they have to drop shield.

 Then there is the missile regen that really don't click for me. Missiles are already much more powerful now, but they get another boost? And one that take the opposite direction as how missile works in the game, in most other games and in reality (not in the "realism" sense, but in the sense you expect them to work). Except for the Pillum, missiles were like a poker game where you could count how many the enemy had left, and act accordingly. But now when you manage to run a Buffalo dry and vent before going in for the kill, suddenly it fire 4 missiles from his sleeve! And it's not cheating! If the goal was mainly to boost the Salamanders, why not make them a MIRV instead? And even better, the sub-missiles could spread and target random weapons in addition to the engines, meaning unless you have a bubble shield you will suffer some hits and get some weapons or engines disabled. If the regen is to stay, maybe consider reactivating the "CR cost per missile fired" in the settings?

 And now almost all ships got CR timer. Okay fair enough, that's the new "ammo" mechanic replacement I suppose. But with so few battles lasting more than 5 minutes, I expect it will have exactly the same impact than ballistic ammo before: none except in a few cases. I'm very much in favor to limiting the deployment time, and CR is a great mechanic to do so, but the flat cost+timer implementation don't convince me yet. (why a ship deployed in pursuit a one tanker should loose 25% of CR after shooting only 2 missiles???) Instead, I would rather have all ships loosing CR as soon as they see an enemy, and only have different CR loss speed. That way it would make sense to take some risks to finish a battle more quickly, instead of taking the safe approach because you already "payed" for it the moment you deployed the ships. Deploying an overwhelming fleet would still cost a lot more than just what's necessary, and if needed maybe only add a minimum of 5% CR spent if the ship is deployed?

There are my thoughts, I feel like it's a lot of trimming the differences when I would have loved to see more of them. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though, and will try to test the future update with an open mind.

[PS] Okay I also don't like the changes because the ammo and missile regen was a huge balance factor in half of Scy weapons, now I have to find something else
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 04:16:26 AM by Tartiflette »
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Cycerin

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2014, 03:55:54 AM »

I can see the rationale behind all these changes, but I can't say if I'm on board with all of them yet. The beam changes are good, and ammo was mostly flavor anyway. With the removal of ammo the fridge logic component of it will go away. Since only charges are used as ammo now, maybe adding a small UI element to show them recharging would be a good idea? A small square symbol that starts from a 1 pixel line and fills up into a square from the bottom up perhaps? The first instinct when looking at charges is to see them as ammo. This would also be useful for the new recharging missiles.

Mostly I dread the sound spam from being barraged with even more CR degradation notifications.

Since you are rebalancing weapons, could you please take a look at the Dual Heavy MG and decide once and for all if it's supposed to be a PD weapon or a close range shield assault weapon? It can easily be both, but then it'd have to be much better against missiles, since right now, due to how bad it is at hitting missiles, whenever it begins tracking a missile, it's effectively wasting time that should be spent shooting ships.

Also, I fear that 1000 range tac lasers will trivialize shieldless fighters (eg, all of them) in many engagements. Maybe fighters should have an innate beam damage reduction.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 03:59:12 AM by Cycerin »
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frag971

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2014, 04:32:13 AM »

Agree with ammo change - i use exclusively energy weapons because i really can't be bothered to worry about ammo. And i NEVER use missile weapons because of the severe lack of ammo (3 missiles per fight is laughable). With this change i can actually start tinkering instead of always going for the standard build i always go (burst pd + pulse/plasma).
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #52 on: December 05, 2014, 05:26:10 AM »

If beams will not hit for hard flux, they should get a new damage type to make it clear they are incapable of hard flux damage.

Similarly, let modders use the other damage types to make their beam weapons hit for hard flux.  (I know I would if I made my own faction of ships with custom beam weapons.)

EDIT:
Quote
Also, I fear that 1000 range tac lasers will trivialize shieldless fighters (eg, all of them) in many engagements. Maybe fighters should have an innate beam damage reduction.
Not really, if tactical laser remains as slow at turning and firing as it is now.  Various PD lasers have been more efficient at stopping them (because they turn and shoot faster), and IR pulse laser (non-beam) is even better.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 05:42:29 AM by Megas »
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Cycerin

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #53 on: December 05, 2014, 06:28:01 AM »

Fighters often have little transversal at 600-700+ range because they are still approaching then. Mass beam fire will be very effective at crippling them. Anyway I don't think beam damage reduction is going to be needed or anything, that was an overreaction.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2014, 06:31:45 AM by Cycerin »
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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #54 on: December 05, 2014, 07:51:33 AM »

Quote
I must ask, does one enemy ship pop up on screen and you run out of ammo shooting thousands of rounds into its hulk until it explodes?
Against one ship, no.  Against a large fleet with one player flagship killing each ship one-by-one singlehandedly like Rambo? yes.

Quote
Never really ran out of ballistic ammo to tell the truth, unless it was a long battle, kind of ambivalent on this decision.
Such "long battles" happen all of the time in late to endgame when I have max Combat and Technology, but not enough Logistics to use a big fleet of my own, or I do have high Logistics but my big fleet is full of Atlases during a food run.
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Thaago

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #55 on: December 05, 2014, 08:00:27 AM »

I'm happy about many of these changes.

The only one that really concerns me is the 1000 range for tactical lasers. Unshielded ships (practically all the early game pirates and fighters) are going to be murdered by wolves. Even more than they are, that is. And tacs + the point defense hullmod are going to have astounding range. Then again, that hullmod is a major investment for a frigate, so maybe thats ok.


Sunder boost seems fitting the the 'glass cannon' concept. I second the Hammerhead getting a boost. I know I was defending it in an earlier thread, but I've changed my mind a bit.



Suggested fix:  force all of the player's fleet to be deployed, up to X DP, and do not allow reinforcements.  The whole concept of reinforcement in a space battle never made a lot of sense; instead, just force the player to decide what ships are possibly going to get killed and force them to deal with it.  That means no more endless-frigate nonsense, but it'd mean real changes would have to be made to how Command Points worked.


It would really change the game, but I would be very on board with having both sides forced to deploy all ships, with NO max fleet size. Its always bugged me that civilian ships are never in danger - raiding civilians is effectively impossible when the AI has any combat ships left. They can hide on the edges, or try and stay on the opposite side of the players ships from their escorts, or whatever. Of course, the civilian ships could just retreat at the start of the battle, so I guess some other change would be needed.
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Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #56 on: December 05, 2014, 08:22:11 AM »

When the path of efficiency is to bring as little as possible onto the battlefield as possible, something might be wrong.

That was already addressed here, maybe you missed it:

Potential issue with the cruiser CR timer: Isn't it a viable option now to "siege" them with worthless shuttles or the like? Stay just out of range until shuttle CP runs out, retreat (the shuttle) and repeat until 7-9 minutes are over. One of this "efficient but boring" things. (I feel like this is said so often it could use its own term. Boricient? Bofficient?)

Potential fix: For frigates CP only runs down while an enemy is within the sight radius. What if for cruisers (could be all classes, effectively) that enemy had to be of equivalent strength to trigger CR loss? So it had to be another cruiser or two destroyers or four frigates/wings nearby (or however the system that decides about auto assignment calculates that).

Hmm, good point. Did that.




I would be very on board with having both sides forced to deploy all ships, with NO max fleet size. Its always bugged me that civilian ships are never in danger - raiding civilians is effectively impossible when the AI has any combat ships left. They can hide on the edges, or try and stay on the opposite side of the players ships from their escorts, or whatever. Of course, the civilian ships could just retreat at the start of the battle, so I guess some other change would be needed.

I think that would cause many more problems than it fixes.  I'd much favor a raid style solution, variants of which were discussed some time ago in a blog post thread.
There the attacker has some choice about which enemy ships to attack before deployment, for example only the freighters. Possible mechanics include a timer until the rest of the enemy fleet appears, that it's only possible with a small, fast raid fleet, that you can choose half of the enemy deployments and he chooses the other half, the necessity to use parts of your fleet for a distraction maneuver, access too loot despite retreat and many more.

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Megas

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2014, 08:23:19 AM »

Quote
And tacs + the point defense hullmod are going to have astounding range. Then again, that hullmod is a major investment for a frigate, so maybe thats ok
Actually, for a Wolf (and probably Shade), it is not.  However, it is not as effective as you think it is because the lasers turn and fire slowly (they cannot stop Salamanders unless the ship turns to follow the missile, and Swarmers or other multishots overwhelm tactical lasers), even with Advanced Turret Gyros.  PD Lasers plus Advanced Optics costs at least the same, but are more effective because the lasers are faster.  Even LR PD lasers only is better than Tactical Lasers due to speed, despite lower damage.

Now, with tactical lasers piercing through missiles, possibly hitting multiple missiles plus enemy ship, that may change.
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nomadic_leader

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2014, 08:47:00 AM »

I'm glad that the developer does not shy from making changes, even when it can rattle players. Players get very reactionary and frightened of changes. If the changes don't work, they'll get changed again, this is the way to figure things out.

My concern is, I hope that the game will have some way of communicating how the missile ammo works in the refitting dialog. People who don't read the forums also need to know ahead of time how it works.

Also the way CR peak performance is going to increment or not increment based on the relative size, and the visibility radius and so on... it's very complicated and again, I hope the game can find some way to inform players of this ahead of time.
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Asauski

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Re: Starsector 0.65.2a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2014, 09:53:40 AM »

In this new version you could put an option to download from 64-bit to avoid those errors that have been reported in other posts in relation to saved games.
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