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Author Topic: Improved Guided Munitions  (Read 12810 times)

Iscariot

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Improved Guided Munitions
« on: February 18, 2012, 03:46:22 AM »

I realize that this game is still in development, and that Alex probably gets all sorts of suggestions along the lines of 'add my awesome weapon/ship/module idea', but I think I do have a suggestion that could possibly increase the complexity of gameplay with new mechanics.

Anyway, here we go: missiles and torpedoes are all pretty basic. I was happy to see the Salamander MRMs get added in, because of how they work, but for the most part, missiles do varying amounts of damage, move at varying speeds, and track targets with varying competence, whereupon they slam into them and deal damage. Pretty basic.

But the beauty of guided munitions-- indeed, of any substance weapon (as opposed to an energy one)-- is load variability, tactical flexibility. So I have a few suggestions to lend that sense to guided munitions in Starfarer; they can be taken on a case by case basis, all, or none, hell, I'm just talking.

1) Improved Torpedo/Missile Magazines: In Starfarer, you can already scroll through various weapons in a weapon group if they're marked as 'alternating'. In 0.35a, I found myself doing this pretty often on the Apogee to avoid wasting Hurricane MIRV when all I wanted was Pilum LRMS. I think it would be useful to handling different varieties of warhead if you could scroll through different loads to select what you'd like to use. It'd still count as one weapon on the refit screen, but you could choose to carry magazines of, say, HE warheads, and maybe a few HEAT rounds for those tricky Dominators. This could apply to cannons as well, but that might be a bit of a hassle.

2) 'Nova' Missiles: Optics and electronics are delicate things, and designed to operate within a particular band of stimuli. 'Nova' Missiles are essentially space flashbangs, low yield nuclear weapons that give off a lot of flash and radiation, but don't actually do much damage-- and are in fact designed to detonate away from their targets to maximize coverage-- but which confer a penalty to turret accuracy to ships caught in their radius for a certain amount of time dependent upon the quality of the crew. It works through shields, after all, ships need to be able to see through their own shields, so it's a useful thing for close assault ships to have as they burn in to bring their close range weapons to bear. Alternatively, could be used at a distance to support wings of fighters coming in on a particularly hard to approach target.

3) Minelaying Missiles: What it says on the tin. Being that they are more strategic, rather than tactical, weapons, minelaying missiles would be launched from the tactical map, and designed to disperse bomblets within a certain area. More or less useless against anything heavier than a frigate, but useful for inflicting attrition upon incoming fighter wings.

4) Interceptor Missiles: Small, but plentiful, these missiles are useful for bringing down fighters and torpedoes. Lacks the longevity of other point defense systems, but packs enough of a punch to down heavily armored torpedoes at a generous distance.

5) Beam missiles: In real life, there are serious drawbacks to the usage of energy weapons in space. For example, a bomb-pumped x-ray laser requires, well, the detonation of a bomb to power its discharge, creating not-easily-dissipated heat and increasing wear and tear on internal parts. Beam missiles solve this by taking those pesky issues and moving them outside the ship. Basically, beam missiles fly within a certain radius of their target, and then explode, pumping an onboard laser array and firing a beam at their target. The advantage of this is that it'd do energy damage, as opposed to frag, high explosive, or kinetic damage, and that a beam missile would strike its target from outside most point defense ranges. For the sake of balance, this would mean that beam missiles would probably be less potent than conventional loads, but you could still harry an enemy enough that they'd be forced to close on you just to shut you up, allowing your fleet to hammer them as they maneuver.

6) Probes: Pretty simple. Instead of scouting with a wing of fighters with valuable stuff like weapons, armor, and people strapped to them, why not shoot a missile instead? Probably needs to be either dumbfire or fired from the tactics screen.

7) Point Defense Spoofing Missiles: Another idea ripped from real life. Modern antiship missiles fishtail wildly when they get close enough to their target to shake off CIWS fire. More effective against ballistic point defense, but packs a smaller warhead because of all the equipment needed to make it move so erratically and still land on target.

8 ) Decoy Torpedoes: Torpedoes that throw out warship level heat, radio, and radar, designed to throw off missiles at the last minute. Pretty high velocity, and in limited quantity. Small operational radius, and doesn't necessarily work on all incoming munitions.
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Pentakill

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2012, 08:08:14 AM »

+1 for long and well thought out ideas! Like the Nova, Minelayer, and Probes a lot
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Space Bear

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2012, 10:09:57 AM »

+1 Lots of great ideas here.
Something along the lines of the decoy torpedo that would be cool,
ECM that could either be a slot-based sub-system or mounted into a torpedo.
Something that would ping up on the enemy radar showing several large ships or even salvos of missiles coming toward them that don't exist. Or perhaps create a persistent fog of war around the ship that would hide it on the tactical map until visual contact is made.

A lot of cool applications of 'stealth' on the battlefield without a cliche cloaking device.
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Iscariot

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2012, 11:13:32 AM »

I hate cloaking devices, personally. They make zero sense and the violate thermodynamics harder than Justin Bieber violates music. They're also just frustrating to deal with-- you either have the sensors to detect the target, in which case you're just fighting a squishy ship, or you don't, and you have to flip all your guns on manual and deal with fighting this tedious invisible thing.
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Alex

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2012, 11:28:06 AM »

I like the ideas here, too - will definitely keep 'em in mind. We've already got the graphics for a beam-firing missile, btw, just haven't gotten around to adding it yet :)
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SgtAlex86

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2012, 11:39:11 AM »

I like the ideas here, too - will definitely keep 'em in mind. We've already got the graphics for a beam-firing missile, btw, just haven't gotten around to adding it yet :)
:o honor harrington mod...  :o
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Iscariot

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2012, 08:06:40 PM »

Small amount of thread resuscitation here, but I figure why not have all the suggestions in the same place.

So after talking with a lot of people on this forum, some in a more hostile manner than others, I've got a few more ideas to throw out there. Again, not really necessary to implement, just ideas to be added or not added with a big 'stop annoying me' from Alex.

9) Kinetic kill missiles: A missile without a warhead. Cheap, maneuverable, deals kinetic damage, but pretty weak. A low ordnance cost missile, I recommend 2 OP, for small ships focused on guns that still want the ability to harry those annoying Tempests.

10) High Velocity Missiles: A missile with a large amount of fuel and speed, useful for shrieking into a target faster than point defense can track them. Again, fairly maneuverable, but much less plentiful than the kinetic kill missiles. Medium ranged.

These two could probably be merged, honestly. The point is to have a fast frigate-chaser.
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Dreyven

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2012, 08:18:58 PM »

11) "Asteroid Hurler" (just a nickname): Big missile slot, shoots big boulder like explosives at the enemy,
no tracking, no engine, the speed comes from the launch (kinda like guns on airpressure... like cannons)
too big to get shot to pieces by PD in time
Deal nearly no damage to shields, medium to armor, devastate hull and have a high chance of disabling the thing it hits (engines!!)

Basically what a capital ship would use instead of a torpedo, against other big ships
well... and if you hit small ships it should tear them apart (that means i want to see bonus dmg depending on the enemy ship size)
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Iscariot

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 08:21:24 PM »

I don't have a problem with mass drivers, but wouldn't that be a little hard to animate as a turret? I mean, how big an asteroid are we talking....
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arwan

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2012, 08:22:53 PM »

going by how little damage the rocks in space do now.. i imagine it would have to be pretty big.
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Alex
You won't be able to refit fighters and bombers at all. They're designed/balanced around having a particular set of weapons and would be very broken if you could change it. Which ones you pick for your fleet -out of quite a few that are available- is the choice here, not how they're outfitted.

Dreyven

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2012, 08:31:08 PM »

well... i think the asteroids need to be buffed anyways... they should be a huge thread...
also i want moving asteroid that you need to watch out for or shoot them down to not take damage

but to quote myself
"boulder like explosives"
we are talking about fighter/bomber size
big chunk of steel(?) filled with loads of... explosive stuff
if it doesn't explode on hit, remote explodable
well... the turret would not be a rack, as you said, it it would be a turret kind of thing...
missile slot because it's more fitting as a missile... and we have a lack of large missiles XD
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Ishman

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2012, 02:49:50 PM »

If I may, I'd suggest that you take a read at my own thread (shameless plug), 'Improved Guided Munitions'-- a lot of what you're suggesting could be added to that thread, or I've touched on it in some way.

A bomb-pumped X-ray missile, for example, I've suggested, and Alex has essentially said that hte sprites for such a thing are already done, they just need to be implemented.

Seeing this quote, I think we should probably get a stickied weapon suggestion thread to consolidate all of the interesting ideas which have been put forward so far.

Also, more from me, I've just realized that we are definitely lacking in ballistic weapon delivering nuclear explosives (large guns firing several hundred pound fission/fusion warheads, and smaller ones launching Hafnium Induced Gamma Ray mini shells)

Also, gyrojets, everybody likes gyrojets.

There's also a distinct lack of Grasers and Masers.

Shatter beams (A weapon which fires gravitons or some other handwavium to simulate Tractors/Repulsors, which cycles rapidly between the two, creating massive shear forces that shred a ship into bits, not to mention pulverizing flesh bags against the bulkheads of the vessel itself) Extremely soft weapon, in the same realm of plausibility as slow traveling plasma blasts and Faster Than Light beams interacting with sub-light Baryons.

From my previous thread

I'd like to preface my suggestions by saying this is a fantastic game, and I am absolutely loving the sprite ships rendered in a nice engine, it's like a modern version of Ares.

So, I'd like to see more weapon types available for the player to customize his ships and fleet with, and I'll start out with a few standard weapon tropes that I believe are missing.


Energy Missile/Torpedo: Provides a large range of variables that can be tweaked, but in general
  • Damage dissipates with range traveled, effective ranges varying from extreme range bombardment to knife range area saturation
  • Do not use ammo, or have very large ammo reserves
  • Extremely long reload times
Examples of potential weapon roles include swarms of independently seeking anti-fighter/bomber plasma balls, long range anti-ship self-propagating fusion torpedo, area of effect persistent damage cloud of positrons, for anti-missile/fighter use.

Cloud Weapons: This is much more nebulous (pardon the pun), I'm thinking about a weapon which would be aimed at an area and used to inflict detrimental status effects on all ships fighting within the area, some examples would include electromagnetically conductive particles that play havoc with ship operation, possible status afflictions like increased flux production and decreased venting, reduced shield efficiency, or nebula esc effects, like reduced turning rate, max speed, acceleration. A cloud of diamond dust particles which reduces the range of energy/projectile weapons passing through it. A positron cloud which slowly eats away at everything unshielded inside the cloud (late game way to deny an area from pesky fighters, or pour on damage against a resistant foe).

Area of effect weapons that explode at the mouse's location: A staple weapon given to the player to provide them a large advantage over AI controlled ships.

Sub-munition missile weapons: Fire a missile to the side of a ship, it explosively pumps an X-Ray laser at the target. Similar to flak weapons, just in missile form, really.

I'd like to see others thoughts on what kind of weapons they'd like to see in the game as well.
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frag971

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2012, 06:08:07 PM »

What i would realy love is some Gundam-style missile volleys. LOADS of fast with low tracking low damage.

Also some cruiser with 4 or 5 large missile mounts on one side.
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Flare

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2012, 06:11:39 PM »

Good god, those gundam missile volleys are the worst things about that show. Not only as you've said that they've awful tracking, but they're also as slow as heck. We have the equivalent of a very large attack helicopter that isn't aerodynamic in any sense of the word evading these things at close range.
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Iscariot

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Re: Improved Guided Munitions
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2012, 07:08:57 PM »

Good god, those gundam missile volleys are the worst things about that show. Not only as you've said that they've awful tracking, but they're also as slow as heck. We have the equivalent of a very large attack helicopter that isn't aerodynamic in any sense of the word evading these things at close range.

No, the worst thing about that show is its thematic hypocrisy and surreal detachment from anything tangentially touching on the social, political, and ideological consequences of societies at war. Not much of a surprise, since it's being played to an generational audience that, for better or worse, has basically zero idea of what war is like and clearly has not tried to find out.

/vent.


Ahum. Anyway, I agree. High speed missile spamming is flashy, but kind of juvenile. If I could get a properly dangerous, guided torpedo I would be really happy. That submarine-esque weight is cool-- much cooler than looking like a badass but actually chipping away at hull and armor.
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