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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: 0.65 Playthrough  (Read 15684 times)

Gothars

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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2014, 04:14:53 PM »

Too the credit of the AI, I have to say that I regularly screw up wile piloting my frigates, too. Yes, the AI makes mistakes, but I don't see an exploitable pattern here.
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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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Clockwork Owl

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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2014, 05:58:57 PM »

I've had several occasions where a fleeting Lasher will show us its unshielded ass while it tries to make an escape. But we're clearly faster and take it out in seconds. The AI could make more trouble for us here, if it decided to be competitive even on retreat. Might even buy enough time to save some other ship's life.
Indeed. At least they should strafe or reverse-thruster when running.
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Cosmitz

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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2014, 05:24:34 AM »

The player in the context of the game is always 'the smarter one', the one that 'does it better'. So ships retreating face forward instead of doing a daring and cunning trick such as retreating on the glide after you vector your thrust.. it lends credibility that you're fighting in-lore ships and crews instead of super-optimised AI scripts.
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Schwartz

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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2014, 02:32:35 PM »

If we're talking about elaborate tactics and pin-point accuracy flux management then yes, you can expect the player to be the only one able to do that. But when it's something simple like putting up a shield in the right direction so you don't get obliterated immediately, that is survival 101.
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Histidine

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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2014, 06:11:30 PM »

@Histidine:

Thank you for the video! What's happening here is it looks like both the Wolf and the Vigilance were given an order to escort the Falcon, which is limiting their mobility and prompting them to prioritize defending it over maneuvering to avoid threat/incoming damage. In other words, this isn't an example of an issue the player is going to face, unless they give an escort order when it's not a good idea, as the admiral AI did here.

(That said, improving escort AI behavior is actually on my list.)
Ah, I see.

I actually used to use escort orders in reverse: instead of "small ships protect big ship," I intended it as "small ships stay close to big ships for safety" (instead of getting isolated and picked off like they seem to do a lot). After that post where you said that tying fast frigates to an order limits their ability to use their mobility, I stopped doing this.

The player in the context of the game is always 'the smarter one', the one that 'does it better'. So ships retreating face forward instead of doing a daring and cunning trick such as retreating on the glide after you vector your thrust.. it lends credibility that you're fighting in-lore ships and crews instead of super-optimised AI scripts.
If we're talking about elaborate tactics and pin-point accuracy flux management then yes, you can expect the player to be the only one able to do that. But when it's something simple like putting up a shield in the right direction so you don't get obliterated immediately, that is survival 101.
I am now amusing myself by imagining a new experience gain mechanic for crew on front-shielded ships. If such a ship with green or regular needs to disengage from the enemy, the AI randomly decides whether to turn around and run forward (thereby exposing its unshielded rear), or keep its shield facing to the enemy and retreat by reversing. If it chooses the latter, all the crew on the ship get promoted to veteran/elite after the battle because that's clearly how awesome they are.

(A more serious alternative would be to greatly decrease ship reverse thrust so turning and running is actually a decision, but this sounds like an AI nightmare)
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superhotdogzz

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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2014, 02:59:33 AM »

@Histidine:

Thank you for the video! What's happening here is it looks like both the Wolf and the Vigilance were given an order to escort the Falcon, which is limiting their mobility and prompting them to prioritize defending it over maneuvering to avoid threat/incoming damage. In other words, this isn't an example of an issue the player is going to face, unless they give an escort order when it's not a good idea, as the admiral AI did here.

(That said, improving escort AI behavior is actually on my list.)

This is why many frigates I send to escort end up in shipwrecks.........
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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2014, 01:51:43 PM »

Hey for the record I've been playing a lot more with the kitchen sink fleet and the game is fun again, the flaws less than I thought and the good things better  ;D

Also trading is still a gimmicky however I've found blowing up every Luddic Trade fleet on sensors does create some exploitable trading.

I would still say though that the game is somewhat difficult to advance in outside of a somewhat repetitive strategy of blowing up moderate strength fleets, grinding up to larger ones, and occasionally dumping a giant cargo block onto some forsaken planet. I couldn't say exactly what's missing, perhaps industry will help elucidate things, or more random bounty type missions. Looking forward to it.

I would also say boarding actions are still very griefy, particularly because there is still little to gain from them (rare ships are great, but they rarely come up, and you rarely get them). It would be need to flesh out this system, or at least provide success rate elucidation based on the situation so your more psychologically prepared for RNG griefing. (50% chance of success with 10 ships used, 60% with 100 versus 10 marines, 70% with boarding etc etc)
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Megas

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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2014, 02:00:14 PM »

Quote
I couldn't say exactly what's missing, perhaps industry will help elucidate things, or more random bounty type missions. Looking forward to it.
The things missing for me is the ability to make your own stuff (ships, weapons, bases) and forge an empire, and removing established factions from the game (and a win condition that triggers when all factions are gone).  I do not want to play errand boy for Hegemony or other factions as my endgame.  I want to be emperor of the whole sector, and all factions stand in my way of that goal.
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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2014, 02:07:15 PM »

I don't know if I want to be Emperor of Mankind (7 billion logistic points required! ARGH) but orbital bombardment of worlds that refuse to lower their tariffs would be a GREAT FEATURE. So would sending legions of marines to steal the delicious organs and drugs and blue crab cakes
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Megas

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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2014, 02:59:09 PM »

It is a game.  I want to be the kaiju that puts more and more Xs or flames on the world map shown after I beat each stage.
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oorek

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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2014, 05:45:25 PM »

Quote
I couldn't say exactly what's missing, perhaps industry will help elucidate things, or more random bounty type missions. Looking forward to it.
The things missing for me is the ability to make your own stuff (ships, weapons, bases) and forge an empire, and removing established factions from the game (and a win condition that triggers when all factions are gone).  I do not want to play errand boy for Hegemony or other factions as my endgame.  I want to be emperor of the whole sector, and all factions stand in my way of that goal.

The game resembles mount & blade in space (with added focus on industry), so it's probably a good idea to borrow some ideas from m&b, given it's a fully-realized game. 'Conquering' through direct combat might work by attacking space stations, which should be garrisoned with a considerable armada of the target faction.

Would make sense for this garrison to become smaller or larger based on the station's importance, supplies and economic standing, so you could also siege out a station by attacking traders to and from it, destabilizing it with black market deals, etc.
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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2014, 06:20:19 PM »

OH! I hadn't even thought of stationary space battles. That would be SWEET! Your fleet versus a massive stationary base, with hundreds of fighters and drones pouring out and probably some new tier of weapon system, Huge, that could one shot frigates from the other side of the map. HAHA XD
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Aereto

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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2014, 06:40:13 PM »

OH! I hadn't even thought of stationary space battles. That would be SWEET! Your fleet versus a massive stationary base, with hundreds of fighters and drones pouring out and probably some new tier of weapon system, Huge, that could one shot frigates from the other side of the map. HAHA XD
One side of a station? Talk about taking the beachhead. It's more on defending your landing troopships than completely wiping out the enemy defense force.

One side of a planet? Definitely a planetary defense fleet. No planetside defense, since there's chance of shooting their own ships.

Both will expect significant marine losses because... space-to-land/port invasion.
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superhotdogzz

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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2014, 11:53:08 PM »

Quote
I couldn't say exactly what's missing, perhaps industry will help elucidate things, or more random bounty type missions. Looking forward to it.
The things missing for me is the ability to make your own stuff (ships, weapons, bases) and forge an empire, and removing established factions from the game (and a win condition that triggers when all factions are gone).  I do not want to play errand boy for Hegemony or other factions as my endgame.  I want to be emperor of the whole sector, and all factions stand in my way of that goal.

The game resembles mount & blade in space (with added focus on industry), so it's probably a good idea to borrow some ideas from m&b, given it's a fully-realized game. 'Conquering' through direct combat might work by attacking space stations, which should be garrisoned with a considerable armada of the target faction.

Would make sense for this garrison to become smaller or larger based on the station's importance, supplies and economic standing, so you could also siege out a station by attacking traders to and from it, destabilizing it with black market deals, etc.

Since there is Valkyrie, we NEED TO SIEGE A PLANET!!!!!
that could be quite cool
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Morrokain

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Re: 0.65 Playthrough
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2014, 02:44:11 PM »

This is a really interesting thread. I wanted to respond real quick while on my lunch break so sorry if I am repeating anything I didn't get a chance to read every post.

I think the reason this is an issue right now in the campaign is more due to a lack of content. Bounty fleets are the only real way besides food shortages to make money so it makes those fights pretty all in as far as profit where any loses negate any gain. Now imagine if you had a mining facility that generated credits every month and money wasn't as tight. Then getting into a battle would be more about military advantage/ destabilizing markets then financial gain. Any financial gains through combat would be just as risky, as it should be, or require cheap salvaged fleets like what the pirates use.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 07:42:54 PM by Morrokain »
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