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[Steven Shi]

I know writing lore is pretty much at the bottom of the list for an alpha-stage game but I can't help but miss reading the lore of the universe Alex has created.

Years back, I was as eager to read an new entry about the universe as I was in seeing a version update in the BLOG page. For me, a sandbox game will always lack the depth of a well crafted single-player game but a universe full of background history is one way to fill the gap. The context is everything to a sandbox game - otherwise, we'd just be flying from A to B and killing C. 

I think myself and many many others would be eager to read about this universe while we wait between each updates. Heck, maybe Alex can set some ground rules and let the communities submit short entries instead to save time? The best entries can even be 'canonized'.

I imagine having to write up an universe worth of lore would be as unpleasant during the final beta stage as it would be right now. It takes time to build up a believable universe so why not start now when time is plentiful.

[Andy H.K.]

I reckon review the submission themselves would also be quite a time-consuming process...

For now I'm scouring mission briefings for every drop of lore I can get.

[David]

This is interesting, and what you've said has provoked a few thoughts. And I suppose it'd be worthwhile to provide my perspective on this, what with doing much of the writing for Starsector now.

1. I think long-form story writing is somewhat at odds with the goal of creating game content. Like, I could spend X hours writing custom descriptions for the entire contents of a system in the game OR I could write a short story about something - but it'll never appear in the game (unless we contrive some Elder Scrolls-like book mechanic; pay 15 credits for a DRM'd copy of a story on your TriPad? Heh heh). That said, it is cool for hardcore fans to get extra content, it just requires paying dev time for something that doesn't directly contribute to the game.

In this respect it's a bit like promotional art (often, in my opinion, misleadingly called "concept art") - you know, super cool illustrations of game stuff; Blizzard excels at this. But same as above, it's expensive for small teams because any art not contributing to the game is taking away from development. (Happily, with Starsector we use the illustrations in the game for locations, dialogs, events, etc. so promotional art CAN contribute to the game!)

But that's talking about what we can show the public. Behind the scenes? There are a bunch of google docs filled with notes for background info, setting, technology, secret history, etc. I think it's really fun to see players work out the big picture from what they pick up in-game.

2. From a purely utilitarian perspective - put on your space-tie and pretend you're a TriTach executive for a moment - I think it's only hardcore players who would really get value from extra stories. Potential players with no emotional connection to Starsector  aren't going to care. They don't know how it feels to fly from Corvus to Askonia smuggling a load of weapons. As much as I'd like to be an awesome writer, they're just going to see some mediocre genre fiction tied in to a game product. ... Unless it's really exceptionally well done, which is difficult and time-consuming, see point about taking away from development.

And at the end of the day, the hardcore players are already hooked. Blizzard lives in a glittering mountain of money so they can put some of their army of artists and writers to making promotional material and fostering an "IP ecosystem" with all kinds of tie-in products, but that's only possible at a certain scale of operations. My conclusion is that its most worthwhile to work on the game directly.

3. This isn't to say that it wouldn't be totally cool and fun to do a short story thing on the blog, maybe even illustrated. Ya'know I dabbled in comics years ago ... man, it'd be so fun. Must stop thinking about it. Need to finish some icons first.

(Bonus phase-stealth point 4: Heck, I should probably go through the mission briefings and tweak them slightly to fit with the updated view of the universe, as applicable - that's all, I believe, written by Ivaylo a couple years ago. I don't expect it'd require much change as it's all set a good 50 'cycles' before the current game time, so the political landscape can plausibly be shifted quite a bit.)

[Gothars]

I'd rather have as much lore as possible tied into ingame quests/events/places/discriptions. I think a setting where people are looking back to better times is rather suited for that. Tech mining/UAC hunting also seems pretty suited for that, since it would make sense that you have to learn about some history of the Sector to trace the path those treasures took in the past.

[Steven Shi]

I know writing background stuff IS time consuming and there are more pressing items on the list hence why I suggested enlisting the community. As for having to review submissions, let the communities filter the entries - the most popular gets a 2nd look by the devs.  

I don't think devoting time to lore/fluff at this stage is taking away development time from the dev. Why is universe building considered less important than coding? Dave stated potential players with 'no emotional connections' wouldn't care. So how do they get connected with the universe? Flying generic spaceship from A to B transporting C on behalf of D certainly wouldn't. What about flying Millennium Falcon from Corellia to Coruscant smuggling bacta tanks for the Black Suns? Why should a potential player devote his/her limited free time doing the former if the latter is available?

My point is, like the Elite/Warhammer/Warcraft etc universes, that kind of history, fluff and fanfictions are something potential competing IPs cannot overcome with graphics or game mechanics BUT you need TIME to flesh out a universe to make it ALIVE and believable. It's not just short stories, in-game books or glossy tie-in comics (I never read those in Elderscrolls =P) but mundane stuff too like tech report, ship specs, faction fluff, holiday descriptions, in-game missions etc. Also, I believe much of what makes up a vibrant universe aren't best expressed with in-game tools.

It also takes time for PLAYERS to absorb these outside-the-game flavours so the same amount of content thrown out at launch would also be less effective than drip feed them over period of time (which is why I loved the fluff in the old blogs).

Caveat: The level of detail is obviously tied to what Alex have in mind for his IP. A once-off single player driven sandbox doesn't require nearly as much as an MMO or even a franchise. On the other hand, if Alex envision his game to stand side-by-side with Eve, Elite and SC then laying the ground work years before release would pay dividend at the end I believe.

[Megas]

As a player, I usually care about the story only as hints on looking for "I Win" buttons.  Excuse plot (or lack of one) is all I need to blow stuff up.

[Thaago]

Really interesting thread so far.

I really love reading the descriptions of stations and planets as I'm coming in to dock (do they go away, btw? Sometimes I feel like I can't find them). I would like it if there was more things showing what the situation is now - the history of the sector is interesting and of course I want to know, but the current state is what really gets me immersed.

I'm on the fence about whether or not community submissions would be good. Something in my gut is making me wary, but I'm not sure what.

[Steven Shi]

@Megas

There's nothing wrong with just looking for things to blow up but the difference between a good game and a classic is the little touches (plural) that most developers leaves out because resources are tight. Tie Fighter didn't have to have a great story to drive the pew pew actions nor the Inner Circle layer which while added nothing to the gameplay, fleshed out the game and made a huge impact on many players.

For sandbox games, longevity is everything. People come for the action but stay for the universe.

@Thaago
I've read some fanfictions that blew professional writers out of the water. Alex can run a monthly competition on entries submission with a set of ground rules (length, context etc) with the judging done by forum vote. It can be anything from a short story to a blurb on an engine part that might not even exist in the actual game. Winner can be given credit on the website or in game. We trust the coding communities to develop mods, why not give a budding writer/gamer a chance at recognition at things they care about?

[heskey30]

Mods are not incorporated into the game, like you are suggesting we do for these lore things. The fact is, you can't crowd write a universe and still have it cohere. Everyone will want their own cool stuff to be the coolest cool stuff, and they would all have slightly different ideas about the other pieces. And because each piece would be cool, adding it to the game would seem fine. But as a whole it would suffer. The entire game would play like a minimash mod - not that those aren't fun, but you definitely know that is not a realistic world. It's a mash-up of worlds.

I do like the idea of more lore, but it should be written by one person, or a group that is in very close communication.

[Steven Shi]

Yes, a coherent universe would best done from a single source but crowd sourced fluff is still doable if there are clear limitations I think.

The current universe is pretty bare boned and I think a decent writer (naturally not just anyone who wish of write about big space guns) can use existing materials and add a little colour without affecting the greater world.

For example, EVE's website (that was years ago) had a section devoted to lore and faction stories. Some tied closely with the existing stuff but there were many entries that were basically standalone with all lore-related stuff limited to mere faction name that can be interchanged with anything.

My point is the difficulty lies in finding a few good community sourced writers and leverage their skills without devoting too much of Alex's time rather than making the lore coherent. It IS extra work of course but for a single player themed game, why would lore crafting be less important than some game mechanics? Done correctly, I think the time spent would be well worth it in the end and free up the existing team to focus on things they are good at instead.

As I said before, going that extra mile when you don't have to is often what turn a good game into a great game. 

[Histidine]

Random points.

- Bits of lore that deal with specifics of ships, planets, weapons, factions and the like (as opposed to general background information) should go in the game, except for a few tidbits to interest new players. They shouldn't be stuffed en masse in blog posts where they end up completely divorced from the discovery experience and two-thirds of the players at launch time won't even know they exist.

- On the other hand, having a section ("Explore the world of Starsector" or something like that?) with short stories and such that help populate the setting would be very nice. There was already that short story contest, easy enough to polish and put up somewhere. Longer works could be added as official material, too, with more editing time.

- Being able to submit your own planet and have a chance for it to get into the game sounds really cool.

The fact is, you can't crowd write a universe and still have it cohere. Everyone will want their own cool stuff to be the coolest cool stuff, and they would all have slightly different ideas about the other pieces. And because each piece would be cool, adding it to the game would seem fine. But as a whole it would suffer. The entire game would play like a minimash mod - not that those aren't fun, but you definitely know that is not a realistic world. It's a mash-up of worlds.

On the contrary, Eric Flint's 1632 alternate history series is built heavily on fan works that can not only get put in official publications but actually get incorporated into canon.

Of course, there are several factors involved that make this possible:

• It's based on a historical setting, which sets clear bounds on the technology, society, politics, etc. involved and gives a huge amount of ready-made background material
• Most of the non-professional stories concern the people on the street rather than the big historical movers and shakers, and/or deal with areas outside the scope of canon material
• There are lots of historical and technical experts in the fandom who can be consulted for assistance with the relevant areas

And possibly some other stuff. Some of these elements are more applicable to Starsector than others, but #2 is the only one that isn't More Dev Work. (At the same time, it's also the most important one and the easiest to do.)

[Megas]

@ SQW:
Some classics had a silly excuse plot or none at all.  Occasionally, they may have a story but it is not in the game, but placed elsewhere 'All There in the Manual'.  It helps that long ago, during the days of pinball and early video games, people seem more interested at racking up points and staying alive as possible, and (combined with limitations of the day) game design reflected that.  Video games (and players' interests as a whole) have evolved much, many of those advertised on TV and elsewhere today feel much like interactive movies, a bit like Dragon's Lair.  Even in the 90s, some games did not have much story, at least at the start of the franchise.

That said, if Starsector shapes up to be like Star Control 2, some story might be needed or else player may miss hints to help him win the game before time expires (and the Kohr-Ah reach Earth).

I see story as developer aid, so that the game does not become so unfocused.  Incidentally, the story interests clients who have more interest in story and immersion than trying to win a game.  Of course, unfocused games can become good through accident.

[miljan]

Gameplay/content > story/lore

Its good to have story/lore in the game, but dont let it move away you from adding real content to the game. So i am for community making fan fiction that will be added later, but really, I would not care that much if there was not one latter of lore/story in the game, but I understand that some people would like to have it.

[nomadic_leader]

To form a real emotional connection with a game, you need lore somewhere. I'm not playing a game to "win in the most efficient way possible" (a suspect goal even in real life), I'm playing to escape reality and experience, however dimly, another reality created by my own and the game designers' imaginations.

Without it, it's just a thing you amuse yourself with for 3 months and then on to the next; a talisman against inadequacy for stat-crunching savants struggling to have the largest turret protruding from their spaceships.

In-game snippets are the way to go; a short story doesn't connect with your play experience.

The planet descriptions etc in the new release are excellent. They provide enough info to spark your roleplaying and flesh out the world. For example, I see the description of work-camps on the Diktat planets, think of the Gulag Archipelago, and decide I hate the diktat. Another player can interpret things differently, because the descriptions don't try to force you to feel a certain way. They keep it light, and there's even some dry humour-- like the leader's picture staring at the air duct.

Lore person, you are doing a great job so far and keep up the good work. Keep sneaking these little pieces of lore into the game!

[Megas]

To form a real emotional connection with a game, you need lore somewhere.

It helps, and can make a good game even better, but it is not required.  Otherwise, some classics would have been forgotten instead of being the classics they are now.  A game needs to be a very good game first.

Without it, it's just a thing you amuse yourself with for 3 months and then on to the next; a talisman against inadequacy for stat-crunching savants struggling to have the largest turret protruding from their spaceships.

If such was the case, I would not be playing Starsector (and other games) now.