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Author Topic: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?  (Read 19569 times)

DaLagga

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How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« on: November 13, 2014, 12:04:14 AM »

First let me say that I know the game is far from finished and that massive balance changes will no doubt occur between now and the full release.  The problem that I'm having right now is that the trading system seems completely broken assuming you're not using the black market.  No matter how much extra supply a planet has and how much demand there is for that particular good at another planet, profitable trade seems impossible because the price gap never seems all that large.  From what I've seen, it's rare that you'll even find a 2 to 1 profit ratio for a particular good. 

For example, a planet exports a good for 50c and another buys it for 100c.  But even in this case, the obscenely massive 30% tariff makes profitable trades impossible.  That 50c cost per unit actually becomes 65c (50c +30%) and that 100c gross profit per unit degrades to 70c (100c - 30%).  As such, your net profit per unit is extremely small (5c in this case) and typically not even enough to cover transport costs.  On the flip side, responding to events like food shortages results in absolutely obscene and rather game-breaking profits.  With a decent trade fleet (7000+ total cargo capacity) I've been able to clear over $1 million credits in a single trade run. 

In short, regular trading seems impossible if you avoid the black market and try to remain clean while event based trading is so profitable that you can break the entire economy in a single run.  Am I missing something, or does the system just need a lot more balancing? 

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jupjupy

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 12:15:45 AM »

Profits from normal trading are meant to be difficult, if not impossible to obtain at this point.

I believe Alex has said before that he dislikes the form of money-grinding trade that some people would want to do. Basically the only ways we've got to earn money from trading right now are: Food shortages, supply disruptions, and selling things you get from blowing up fleets. The tariffs that are in place are currently what is preventing players from generating cash simply by funneling say, heavy machinery from planet A to planet B.

What I'm hoping for in the future is commissioned trades, like the Hegemony giving you a quest to send 5k hand weapons to some random backwater planet thats undergoing some crisis, or something along those lines.
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Megas

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2014, 05:45:38 AM »

Food shortages and trade disruptions at stations tend to repeat themselves.  You need to deposit as much (of the relevant) commodities at stations that are prone to these events, then sell them when the event occurs.  In case of food shortages, you really want conditions to "worsen" before you sell, then sell all food for maximum profit.  Penalty for food glut is insignificant (and even if it was, severe shortage is infrequent enough that you can build up reputation in the meantime).

In a way, you still have "the form of money-grinding trade that some people would want to do."  The only difference is you do not have it on demand when you want and you must wait until the game decides a station has an event.
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Gothars

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2014, 06:04:30 AM »

Yeah, repeatable trade runs are not supposed to be viable to avoid boredom. See also this blogpost for details on that design decision.  I'd say we have the foundation of an interesting system, but there's not enough variety yet to make it interesting in the long term.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2014, 07:04:18 AM »

You can't and you're not supposed to be able to profit from non-shortage trade. Standard repeatable trade runs are boring. But if they're in the game people will do them even if they're boring. The only solution is to make them non-profitable and force people to do the stuff that isn't boring.
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ciago92

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2014, 07:46:24 AM »

You can't and you're not supposed to be able to profit from non-shortage trade. Standard repeatable trade runs are boring. But if they're in the game people will do them even if they're boring. The only solution is to make them non-profitable and force people to do the stuff that isn't boring.

I understand the thrust of the idea, but who are you to say the trade runs are boring? Admittedly Alex has basically said the same thing, and it's his game, but overall I question why people assume that if they're bored with trade runs everyone will be.
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Nori

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2014, 08:13:00 AM »

Yeah it is pretty frustrating and really doesn't make a lot of sense.
I mean you are just trading so called "boring" trade runs for easily exploitable shortages which net you obscene amounts of cash. Rather odd I think.
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CopperCoyote

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2014, 08:33:33 AM »

What amuses me is despite the intent to not have regular trade runs i found myself going from Eos to Askonia over and over again anyway. Just in preparation for the inevitable food shortage. I personally don't mind doing repetitive tasks for a while. I liked the mining in EVE Online too. If i get bored trading or mining I just go ratting, and have a nice time blowing up ships.

An interesting side effect of having to wait for shortages is it encourages the player to be somewhat cruel. "Sindaria needs food badly? I don't care yet. I need at least 1K more people to be starving so at least half of you are in trouble. Come back once you'll pay me double what you are now."

A side note about waiting for conditions to worsen: either you'll get a notice the conditions are worsening or you'l get a notification for a relief fleet. If you get the notification for relief fleet sell your food unless you're willing to wait for a second food shortage later, and hope they don't get a relief fleet.
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Nori

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2014, 09:36:52 AM »

Yeah I feel like the shortages are more grindy and artificial than actual trade would be.
I make a habit of filling up my cargo holds with food just in case, but otherwise the quickest buck is just buying food cheap and waiting around for a shortage. Or you could try to make one. I bought all the food on a market and a week later they had a shortage..  Went back and sold the exact same food for nearly 10x the price... Um ok...
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Megas

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2014, 09:48:18 AM »

Quote
A side note about waiting for conditions to worsen: either you'll get a notice the conditions are worsening or you'l get a notification for a relief fleet. If you get the notification for relief fleet sell your food unless you're willing to wait for a second food shortage later, and hope they don't get a relief fleet.
If you are lucky, an enemy fleet (pirates or Tri-Tachyon) can intercept the Luddite relief fleet.  In my last sale, a pirate fleet took out the relief fleet just when I was about to leave Askonia.  I backtracked immediately and hauled food from Volturn (my other food stash) to Sindria and sold enough food for level up once from 58 to 59.

Also, I noticed Tri-Tachyon base gets trade disruptions for supplies, fuel, and other commodities.  Since I regularly visit them to get their rare ships and weapons, I try to stockpile commodities there so that when they get disrupted, I can profit there too.

Jangala sometimes wants junk (and rare) metal (and other commodities).  I try to haul it there and store it until trade disruption, often toggling Augmented Engines on and off to make more room for more metal.
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Alex

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2014, 11:13:43 AM »

To respond in general: I'm aware of the current shortcomings :) I think it'll work better once more events and variety are in the mix, and perhaps some other mechanics to guide things along (say, a monthly fee based on quantity for storage?)
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Cromodus

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2014, 11:15:42 AM »

To respond in general: I'm aware of the current shortcomings :) I think it'll work better once more events and variety are in the mix, and perhaps some other mechanics to guide things along (say, a monthly fee based on quantity for storage?)

And tariff adjustments based on the prosperity of the colony? Or just randomized tariffs all around between 10% and 30%?
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Gothars

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2014, 11:42:16 AM »

And tariff adjustments based on the prosperity of the colony? Or just randomized tariffs all around between 10% and 30%?

Tariffs are the wall that guard normal trade from being profitable. Screwing around with it might open up holes in that wall, which players can abuse. Imagine trade being about just finding markets with low tariffs and then establishing regular trade between them. That would reduce the idea behind the whole even based trade to absurdity.

The only way in which lower tariffs would make sense to me is as another kind of time-limited event.
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cardgame

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 12:15:03 PM »

And tariff adjustments based on the prosperity of the colony? Or just randomized tariffs all around between 10% and 30%?

Tariffs are the wall that guard normal trade from being profitable. Screwing around with it might open up holes in that wall, which players can abuse. Imagine trade being about just finding markets with low tariffs and then establishing regular trade between them. That would reduce the idea behind the whole even based trade to absurdity.

The only way in which lower tariffs would make sense to me is as another kind of time-limited event.

A 60% tax is pretty freaking brutal. Prices are already so similar most of the time that it's not really going to change anything to have a lower tariff.
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Gothars

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Re: How can you possibly profit from normal trade?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2014, 12:26:02 PM »

A 60% tax is pretty freaking brutal. Prices are already so similar most of the time that it's not really going to change anything to have a lower tariff.

If it would not change anything, why would you want it?
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