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Author Topic: Why do fighters have pilots?  (Read 15325 times)

ValkyriaL

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2014, 02:00:44 AM »

speed limits make very much sense since the same logic of inertia and G-forces we have on earth also applies to space, if your car goes to fast, its not going to turn, same goes for a spaceship, the slower you go, the less power is needed to change direction, to have a reasonable turn time while still being fast enough to get anywhere, aswell as not killing the crew, there are speed limits or engine limitations, since G-forces and inertia cannot be eliminated, they are always there.

http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/03/q-how-do-you-turnchange-directions-in-space/

i remember having a discussion with some guy that said he could stop an asteroid with his bare hand since there is no "weight" G-forces or inertia in space, that was funny. ;D

(so many ninja comments...)


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Gaizokubanou

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2014, 02:44:08 AM »

Slightly veering off topic but if an AI isn't truly intelligent (sentience and all that), it can probably be exploited by trans-human pilots (unless the combat doctrine is very simple and is purely a match of precise repetition and reaction time).

And if the AI was truly intelligent, then the idea of using such AI as throwaway brain instead of humans could be absurd because why the heck would they cooperate with you to go on the highest risk missions?  Unless it's at a gunpoint, at which you can pretty much do the same with human pilots?  You know the whole "machines-overthrow-human" genre is very much about this aspect yet when it comes to tactical aspects many seem to be way too eager to make something that's far superior than you and hope that it follows your orders while holding all the weapons.

If there is no AI and it's just drones then those are probably vulnerable to jammers and whatnot.
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Linnis

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2014, 05:00:09 AM »

speed limits make very much sense since the same logic of inertia and G-forces we have on earth also applies to space, if your car goes to fast, its not going to turn, same goes for a spaceship, the slower you go, the less power is needed to change direction, to have a reasonable turn time while still being fast enough to get anywhere, aswell as not killing the crew, there are speed limits or engine limitations, since G-forces and inertia cannot be eliminated, they are always there.

Ok, there are decent youtube vids out there better then an article two paragraphs long with 1 sentence of actual useful information, misleading information.

1. G forces come from acceleration.
If you are not accelerating, you feel no G force. The earth has gravity, and gravity is in measured in acceleration, not speed.

2. Inertia has to be thought in context with relativity.
You can "stop" a 1000000km/h 10000000kg(ie in 1g) asteroid in space with 1 hand if you are going 999999km/h in the same direction. In 1rst person perspective, he stopped the asteroid, in 3rs person, the asteroid sped him up.
So that means inertia is measured in DIFFERENCE between two objects with consideration of mass.

So no matter how fast I can going in my ship, I will feel no G force, as soon as I speed up, the ship will push me forward, as soon as I stop speeding up, I start floating around in my ship.





Slightly veering off topic but if an AI isn't truly intelligent (sentience and all that), it can probably be exploited by trans-human pilots (unless the combat doctrine is very simple and is purely a match of precise repetition and reaction time).

Just depends on how you create the AI, AI are just machines, so are people's brains.

So yeah, an AI can be dumb and predictable pilots, but so are everyone. Training = programming your brain, so you just gotta train the AI or program it right in... Kinda like what they did in the matrix.

AI and Drones are not the same thing.
AI is something that can calculate and think.
Drone is an unmanned device for performing tasks.

Not in the same category of things.
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Debido

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2014, 06:08:19 AM »

Are you guys still trying to rationalise sci fi?
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Cromodus

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2014, 07:07:44 AM »

Are you guys still trying to rationalise sci fi?

Because we're not talking about Sci-Fi but actual technology, being developed today in 2014. Your comments so far have amounted to telling people to stop talking. If you're not interested in contributing to this conversation then go do something else.

--------------------------------------------

To me, it's still simpler AND cheaper to develop a solid auto-pilot that is an unpredictable, independant flying ace and copy/paste it to every fighter in the fleet than it is to: Spend years training new pilots, drug them, augment them with cybernetic implants, build them a ship with a cockpit, lifesupport system and inertial dampers or whatever else you want to add.

I read up on the lore laws on developing and using AI but that only applies to sentient AI. We're talking about about a computer program that is nothing less, and nothing more, than awesome at driving fighter ships.
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Debido

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2014, 07:27:41 AM »

Uh huh. Technology being developed in 2014, like cybernetic implants and inertial dampeners. Yup. I must be in the wrong time period.
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jupjupy

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2014, 07:49:44 AM »

Uh huh. Technology being developed in 2014, like cybernetic implants and inertial dampeners. Yup. I must be in the wrong time period.

To be fair, cybernetic implants are certainly in development. And inertial dampeners are simply shock absorbers.
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You see, Araragi-san, in a way, the supernatural is what's behind the curtain.
Normally, you only need to see what's happening on stage. That's how reality works.

WKOB

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2014, 08:40:55 AM »

I got your point Debido, but yeah, bad example, both of those things are in existence. :P

'Cybernetics' is a reality fast approaching corporate interest (and once it does, it will explode), and interial dampeners would just be RCS which has been around for decades.
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PrinzMegahertz

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2014, 10:32:04 AM »

Why do fighters have pilots? Because game mechanics and fun/balanced/challenging gameplay come first and foremost.

You can come up with whatever handwave/mcguffin rationalising reason you like to justify it. The point is, it doesn't matter.

Also, trying to set the crew req for fighters to 0 means they will always be recruit status, the crew gives them the elite or veteran/regular training.
True this is probably a pretty easy fix, but what to you set them as then?
Elite? are drone pilots automatically elite?.

I'd say just wait, I'm sure Alex has a plan :)


Just associate them with a carrier and let them share the carrier crew's xp
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SafariJohn

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2014, 12:41:27 PM »

Cybernetics already exist. I know a guy who has artificial hearing. He wears little things around his ear that attach to plates in his head that his brain is able to interpret sound from. I don't know the specifics to explain it better.

If he uses a special attachment that works like headphones for him, he literally can't hear anything but the music. Shout in his ear and he might feel your breath, but not a peep of noise. Normal ear-bud headphones don't work for him since he doesn't hear through his ear.

He can turn off his hearing if he wants, or otherwise adjust the volume. I suspect, with the proper software, equipment, and conditioning, he could have very, very sensitive hearing. Like listen to your heart beat from across the room. I don't know, I haven't asked him.


Me, I'm waiting for artificial eyes. :P
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Cromodus

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2014, 01:11:33 PM »

Cybernetics already exist. I know a guy who has artificial hearing. He wears little things around his ear that attach to plates in his head that his brain is able to interpret sound from. I don't know the specifics to explain it better.

If he uses a special attachment that works like headphones for him, he literally can't hear anything but the music. Shout in his ear and he might feel your breath, but not a peep of noise. Normal ear-bud headphones don't work for him since he doesn't hear through his ear.

He can turn off his hearing if he wants, or otherwise adjust the volume. I suspect, with the proper software, equipment, and conditioning, he could have very, very sensitive hearing. Like listen to your heart beat from across the room. I don't know, I haven't asked him.


Me, I'm waiting for artificial eyes. :P

I read a news article the other day saying that we can now make bionic hands that can feel touch. Nothing nearly as good as a real hand but this soldier with a replaced arm could tell the difference when touching Felt and Velcro.

That's pretty freakin' cool if you ask me.
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Gaizokubanou

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2014, 04:04:43 PM »

AI and Drones are not the same thing.
AI is something that can calculate and think.
Drone is an unmanned device for performing tasks.

Not in the same category of things.

Ok... kinda weird seeing this as reply to my post since I explicitly mentioned similar considerations :P

Quote from: Cromodus
To me, it's still simpler AND cheaper to develop a solid auto-pilot that is an unpredictable, independant flying ace and copy/paste it to every fighter in the fleet than it is to: Spend years training new pilots, drug them, augment them with cybernetic implants, build them a ship with a cockpit, lifesupport system and inertial dampers or whatever else you want to add.

This is probably the case.  I can't imagine a grounded scenario in which simple, fast program (good computer but not an AI) dealing with all known combat doctrines being topped off by super intelligence by any value of importance.

The strongest and most definitive limitations would likely be the hardware's capability, not how well it is controlled.

Unless the lore explicitly deals with how the tech is so control reliant on their limitation (like either the craft itself has capability that requires extremely fine on-the-fly adjustments to keep at peak performance OR combat doctrines are so complex that no simple machine can ever execute without coming off as too predictable) but that doesn't seem to be the case here?

Or maybe they are all already equipped with auto-pilot and the pilot is there to just take that extra step ahead of the unmanned craft?  But even so it's probably more space efficient to just stack even more auto-pilot controller in the place of a pilot.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 04:09:05 PM by Gaizokubanou »
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shazbot

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2014, 06:33:14 PM »

To me, it's still simpler AND cheaper to develop a solid auto-pilot that is an unpredictable, independant flying ace and copy/paste it to every fighter in the fleet than it is to:

What stops your enemy from doing the same? You'd end up with fleets of equal skill that would always reach a stalemate unless you make them extremely advanced to the point where only humanity loses and if the self aware AI fleet didn't get you, an extremely angry Hegemony fleet officer will.

Spend years training new pilots, drug them, augment them with cybernetic implants, build them a ship with a cockpit, lifesupport system and inertial dampers or whatever else you want to add.
You go to a station and pay someone to fight for you (or maybe you pay the station, the station's system picks people at random and tells them which bay they should run into). That person will be a member of your active fighter wing, in front of a screen controlling a flak cannon or in a space suit replacing a ship's armor plates after a battle.

If his (or her) only battle experience was playing "Talon-Wing Simulator 205™" for 2 minutes at a Hegemony Navy recruitment office (he did worse than the average), he's going to man a cheap fighter designed a long time ago, for humans. Guy boards your carrier, heads to the flight deck and waits for the next Talon fighter chassis to be assembled, man with a higher rank starts yelling at him to run, run into the freshly constructed fighter's cockpit. The rookie tries to remember what he should be doing while trying not to cry.

As every ship in your fleet has men and women in it, some may be better than the rest and stand out, earning experience, moving off the small ships into frigates and in rare cases becoming officials. Even if all your fighters have basic AI comparable to that of a rookie to save on crew costs, they will lose against a wing manned by humans.
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Gaizokubanou

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2014, 06:51:16 PM »

What stops your enemy from doing the same? You'd end up with fleets of equal skill that would always reach a stalemate unless you make them extremely advanced to the point where only humanity loses and if the self aware AI fleet didn't get you, an extremely angry Hegemony fleet officer will.

Nothing other than access to resources and technology.

And I think Cromodus has a good point in that the controlling computer for a fighter craft probably will never have to become some form of sentient super AI, unless the most advanced and efficient technology of the given lore demands that the performance of the craft scales with controller's intelligence.  At which point the idea of having normal pilots (ones that are swappable with regular crews) is also odd.
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shazbot

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Re: Why do fighters have pilots?
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2014, 07:18:05 PM »

Nothing other than access to resources and technology.

So you just have to raid wherever the Tri-Tachyon corporation keeps their precious scientists and documents regarding "autonomous alpha+ level AI", take those and force them to work for you. All of this because your fighter's crew needs supplies, takes up more room than a processor and doesn't perform as well as a machine?
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