Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Feedback on current version  (Read 7847 times)

Nori

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 410
    • View Profile
Feedback on current version
« on: November 02, 2014, 04:50:01 PM »

So this will probably come off as a bit of a rant because I'm quite frustrated... And maybe it should be in suggestions?

Quick little background, been playing Starsector since just before the initial campaign release and have put in a significant amount of hours into it. Not saying I'm good or have a opinion worth more than anyone else, but wanted to put it out there.

Ok on to it. My brother told me a new Starsector version was released and so seeing as I haven't played it in forever I thought I should download it and try it out. The changes sounded pretty great and I was excited to try it.

Have played maybe 6 hours since I installed it and I gotta say I really don't like how the economy works.

First off though lets start with how it is pigeonholing the player into certain styles of play.

Bounty Hunter: Seeing as you get hardly any module drops and so few credits from combat you have to use the bounty system. Yet it is rather hit or miss. I say that because you might get a notice about bounties somewhere but you can't get there in time, or you can't defeat the bounty offered. Thus you end up waiting around getting bored and losing money. Forget about just attacking random fleets. All incentive to do that is gone.

Trader: This one really gets me going... The only way to reliably make money is exploiting shortages or trade disruptions. But even then it isn't a sure thing (which is fine) because unless you get lucky it is no unlikely that you will miss the shortage and the relief fleet will get there first. I guess I don't mind this as shortages can net you a ton of money if you act fast which is nice.
What is maddening is that you can't really make money from basic trade. At least from the hours of testing I've done. The big reason is the extreme 60% tariff. And don't even get me started on the expensive custom scans... I understand the need/want for the tariff, but 30% buying and 30% selling is insane. I may be wrong but I can't think of any markets that will charge a tariff on exports. They should encourage exports because it brings money in from the outside. If the buying tariff was removed then the 30% selling wouldn't seem so bad.

But that doesn't address the basic problem with trade pricing. Either we as players aren't getting enough info, or there isn't reasonably profitable trade routes without taking advantage or shortages. I should be able to loadup 200 units of food from a place that produces it and unload it as say a orbital station for a reasonable profit. So far I haven't been able to do that. Part of it is the tariff system, but overall it just seems off.

Back to the pigeonhole... Those are really the only two ways to play anymore. Sure there are variants. You could be a bounty hunter and only take on pirates, or basically join a faction and fight their enemies. You can be a smuggler instead of a trader (which just means all the factions will hate you). But being a pirate is enough more difficult since you get so little "loot" from attacking ships. It is said you should go after trade ships but that doesn't seem that much better from my experience.

In closing... I get that the economy (what was there) was busted in earlier versions of the game and a reasonable player could easily reach end game pretty fast. But I feel like this has swung so far in the other direction. It feels very grindy to me now and distinctly not friendly for new players.

I still think the game is great. It is a lot like Mount and Blade in space. But in Mount and Blade attacking bandits at least gave you something in return.
Logged

CrashToDesktop

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3876
  • Quartermaster
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2014, 05:48:07 PM »

Bounty Hunting is actually one of the most profitable ways to make money in the game right now, only beaten by trading if and only if you have the patience to wait for those events.  There's usually a 2500c or 3000c bounty from Jangala and a 900c bounty from Asharu right off the bat in Corvus - that's a 4900c maximum payout per frigate you kill.  It's insane.  And then you get to the specific bounty fleets.  The early, 10Kc ones aren't that profitable, but if you get enough of them down, you can start to get upwards of 50Kc, then 100Kc, and then to the biggest ones that (as big as I've seen) nearly 200Kc for a multiple Cruiser and Capital ship "deserter" fleet (as we on the forums have come to call them, your average Pirate won't be able to acquire that much hardware).

And the tarrif system is supposed to prevent players from finding trade routes that are profitable without any event happening.  Alex has done that for the sake of sanity in the game, so grinding out money like that is impossible.  Like in the Atlas Super-Freighter's description, "...an uneven mixture of soul-numbing boredom and abject terror..." - I'm fairly certain that's not the type of gameplay anyone wants.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 05:50:39 PM by The Soldier »
Logged
Quote from: Trylobot
I am officially an epoch.
Quote from: Thaago
Note: please sacrifice your goats responsibly, look up the proper pronunciation of Alex's name. We wouldn't want some other project receiving mystic power.

xenoargh

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 5078
  • naively breaking things!
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2014, 05:59:29 PM »

I have 2 million+, almost all from from bounties atm.
Logged
Please check out my SS projects :)
Xeno's Mod Pack

heskey30

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2014, 06:38:37 PM »

Well, I could tell you that that is the point - you aren't supposed to make money off of static trade routes. According to Alex, the big trade corporations are the only ones that are supposed to be efficient and connected enough to make money off of static routes, and the player is supposed to be opportunistic.

But a lot of people have raised this same objection, and it looks like maybe these new mechanics are violating a major rule of game design - don't tell your players how to play your game. They should generally be able to play how they expect to be able to play.

So it looks like it is a good idea to make a static trade-route profitable to the player. 

As for pirate hunting - it was ridiculous how much you could make from destroying pirate fleets before this update, it was always supposed to be a alpha stage boost to the player's advancement speed because there was nothing else you could really do and grinding that much would be boring.
Logged

Nori

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 410
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2014, 06:40:32 PM »

I didn't mean to say that bounties don't work. If I came off that way it was a accident. But they force you to play a certain way and "follow" the rules so to speak.
I started a new game as a trader (the bounty hunter -rep for indy is really rough) made a quick buck on a stupid simple food shortage (was in starting system) and now I am doing bounty hunting and it does pay off. I guess it just feels off and again the 60% tariff is just ridiculous...

edit:
Well, I could tell you that that is the point - you aren't supposed to make money off of static trade routes. According to Alex, the big trade corporations are the only ones that are supposed to be efficient and connected enough to make money off of static routes, and the player is supposed to be opportunistic.

But a lot of people have raised this same objection, and it looks like maybe these new mechanics are violating a major rule of game design - don't tell your players how to play your game. They should generally be able to play how they expect to be able to play.

So it looks like it is a good idea to make a static trade-route profitable to the player. 

As for pirate hunting - it was ridiculous how much you could make from destroying pirate fleets before this update, it was always supposed to be a alpha stage boost to the player's advancement speed because there was nothing else you could really do and grinding that much would be boring.
Well that is good to hear.
Not arguing against that. It was crazy how much you could make. But not there is literally no incentive to attack a fleet unless there is a bounty. You get so little from it that it isn't even worth the supplies. That is just so weird. How could these enormous ships be so completely destroyed that you can't even make back the supplies/crew it took to destroy them?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 06:43:08 PM by Nori »
Logged

heskey30

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2014, 06:58:09 PM »

Well, short of towing the entire hull behind you and selling it as scrap, I'm pretty sure it would be hard to salvage much off of a warship that has just been filled with high explosive rounds until the reactor exploded and irradiated and/or melted the whole thing.

And irl, even the winner never makes money off of battles. The only ones who do are the ones who sell the weapons!

But if you use low tech or efficient ships, and don't take much damage or deploy many of them compared to the enemy, I think that you can make money off of random fights. It's just not the best way to make money.
Logged

Aeson

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2014, 07:26:38 PM »

I may be wrong but I can't think of any markets that will charge a tariff on exports. They should encourage exports because it brings money in from the outside.
Try thinking of it as a sales tax. Maybe modern governments don't impose export fees (I don't know, though I'd rather doubt that there isn't at least some fee applied), but I'd be willing to bet that any transaction that transfers ownership of the item from the manufacturer to the shipper gets hit with some form of sales tax. 30% is a very high sales tax, but not an unheard of sales tax.

But that doesn't address the basic problem with trade pricing. Either we as players aren't getting enough info, or there isn't reasonably profitable trade routes without taking advantage or shortages. I should be able to loadup 200 units of food from a place that produces it and unload it as say a orbital station for a reasonable profit. So far I haven't been able to do that. Part of it is the tariff system, but overall it just seems off.
When buying for 130% of the list price and keeping 70% of the sales price, you need to sell for at least ~1.86 times the purchase cost to break even on the cost of purchasing the goods. Factoring in the shipping costs raises that a bit, so it's probably only worth intentionally carrying cargo from point A to point B when the price at point B is at least double the price at point A if you're running your shipping 'business' based on current demand.

The big reason is the extreme 60% tariff. And don't even get me started on the expensive custom scans... I understand the need/want for the tariff, but 30% buying and 30% selling is insane.
The tariff isn't 60%; it's closer to 30% of the total value of the transaction. For example, if you sell food for 2 credits before tax and purchased it for 1 credit before tax, the tariff amounts to about 27.3% of the total value of the transaction, leaving you with a profit of 0.1 credit per unit of food traded; total taxes paid is 0.9 credits per unit of food traded out of a transaction value of 3.3 credits per unit of food traded (1.3 credit to purchase, 2 credits for the sale). The more extreme the difference between the purchase cost and the sale price of the good being traded, the closer the tariff comes to 30%; for example, food sold at 240 credits per unit and purchased at 30 credits per unit (not terribly uncommon when buying at Tartessus and selling at any world with a decent food shortage) results in 29% of the total value of the transaction being taken in tariffs. If you're evaluating the tariff relative to the sale price at the destination, you could come up with higher numbers, although it's difficult to evaluate that without knowing the purchase cost, though by this metric the effective tariff goes to 30% as the sale price increases relative to the purchase price; even by this metric, the tariff by this metric only reaches 60% if you're selling at the same price you purchased the goods at (if you're selling for less than you purchased the good for, the effective tariff can be larger than 60%), while the tariff is 45% of the sale price if you're selling at twice the purchase cost, and it falls further the greater the disparity between the sale price and the purchase cost becomes.

If you're evaluating the tariff relative to your profit, I don't really even want to go there, as the numbers are extremely variable; in the case where you sell for twice the nominal purchase costs, your tariff payments are 9 times greater than your gross profit before shipping expenses, while if you're looking at selling for 8 times the purchase costs the tariff is about equal to 63% of the gross profit before shipping expenses. (Note that the tariffs are not included in shipping expenses and are accounted for when computing gross profit; shipping expenses are fuel, supplies, and customs inspections, which cannot be evaluated without knowing where you came from, where you went, how you got there, and how lucky you were along the way.)

And irl, even the winner never makes money off of battles. The only ones who do are the ones who sell the weapons!
History would like to disagree with you. Some pirates were quite obviously able to turn a profit off of battles, otherwise piracy would have dried up without requiring the intervention of the navies of any nations, even if it's not necessarily commonly profitable (all that needs to happen is for there to be enough success for a few that people decide there's easy money to be had). The history of prize law strongly indicates that at the very least some of the higher ranking members of the crews of naval vessels involved in engagements where ships were captured stood to make significant amounts of money off the action. Given the values listed on Wikipedia's page on it, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that naval engagements that took a decent merchant vessel as a prize could work out to a net profit for the nation whose warships took the prize.
Logged

heskey30

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2014, 07:55:12 PM »

And irl, even the winner never makes money off of battles. The only ones who do are the ones who sell the weapons!
History would like to disagree with you. Some pirates were quite obviously able to turn a profit off of battles, otherwise piracy would have dried up without requiring the intervention of the navies of any nations, even if it's not necessarily commonly profitable (all that needs to happen is for there to be enough success for a few that people decide there's easy money to be had). The history of prize law strongly indicates that at the very least some of the higher ranking members of the crews of naval vessels involved in engagements where ships were captured stood to make significant amounts of money off the action. Given the values listed on Wikipedia's page on it, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that naval engagements that took a decent merchant vessel as a prize could work out to a net profit for the nation whose warships took the prize.

By battle I meant a very different thing from piracy. He was talking about going after (somewhat) heavily armed and lean pirates, not juicy traders. And right, I didn't think of prizes, but you got those when the captains surrendered their ships, which doesn't happen much in starsector - you're dealing with the sunken ones here. Even if you happen to capture the wreck.
Logged

Histidine

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4688
    • View Profile
    • GitHub profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2014, 07:56:30 PM »

For piracy to actually offer the chance of a halfway decent profit will likely require an extortion/demand-surrender mechanic - newest suggestion thread here. Currently your only option is to get into a battle and blow the target up, with the obvious penalties to expenses and reward alike.
Logged

Nori

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 410
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2014, 09:01:47 AM »

Ok been playing a lot lately and I have been enjoying the game a lot.

A few things that are rough are:
As I've said the Tariff is pretty crazy...
The faction cargo scans should be toned down a bit, maybe a delay of a week or more between scans (even among separate factions) and have them ignore tiny fleets (single destroyer or 1-3 frigates).
I did some smuggling and got a -45 rep on a faction after investigation. Is that normal? (could be a mod, running StarSector+)

I don't understand the relay sniffing. What does it help with?
More market info would be nice. You can see things when you get to a station, but unless you just happen to be carrying what they want there is literally no way to know what they need unless it is a food shortage. There are times when I have made bank on fuel. But I was just lucky to have excess and happen to see that the prices were super high.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12159
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2014, 09:49:55 AM »

Quote
I did some smuggling and got a -45 rep on a faction after investigation. Is that normal? (could be a mod, running StarSector+)
It sets reputation to -30, if not already there.  I got nailed from buying two Tachyon Lances at a Black Market, and lost -130 reputation (from 100 to -30).

Similarly, fighting a non-hostile faction will set reputation to -50 (or a little worse) if not already there.

Quote
I don't understand the relay sniffing. What does it help with?
It supposed to give advanced warning of some events before they happen, but with so many events happening at once, it is not worth the trouble.
Logged

Nori

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 410
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2014, 09:58:21 AM »

Huh. Well I don't like that. With how hard it is to get to 100 rep... I feel like the black market is just so important because they frequently has things you need.
I can't tell you the amount of times I've had to buy supplies or fuel from them or risk dying... Then I have a risk of -100 or more rep loss?  I get that a faction wouldn't like smuggling but that seems really excessive.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12159
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2014, 10:01:55 AM »

Some weapons, especially 25+ OP heavy weapons, are annoyingly rare, and more than half of my finds are in the Black Market.  I buy rare weapons and ships from them.

Quote
You can see things when you get to a station, but unless you just happen to be carrying what they want there is literally no way to know what they need unless it is a food shortage.
Events for some places repeat themselves periodically.  The way to take advantage of food shortages or trade disruptions is to deposit and stockpile commodities at the station before the events happen.  For food, good places are Maxios and Volturn (and maybe Sindira).  (Ashura is too far away from Eos.)  For fuel and supplies, various stations in Magec periodically get trade disruptions.  EDIT:  Magec and Eos can get trade disruptions for hand weapons, and Jangala rarely gets trade disruptions for metal (i.e., junk ingots).

In case of food, try to wait until conditions "worsen" (or get trade disruption for food stacking on top of shortage), then sell all of it for maximum profit.  The penalty for food glut, if found guilty, is -5 reputation, nothing compared to the huge profit of XP and credits.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 10:18:52 AM by Megas »
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12159
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2014, 10:14:10 AM »

Quote
But if you use low tech or efficient ships, and don't take much damage or deploy many of them compared to the enemy, I think that you can make money off of random fights.
From midgame (after getting Combat 5 and Technology 7) to endgame (before max Combat flagships appear), I could loot more supplies than I consume with one to three Wolf flagships, and the rest of my fleet as extra cargo space.
Logged

Jazwana

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
Re: Feedback on current version
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2014, 10:59:35 AM »

A few thoughts on what has been discussed above:

-The Industry skill tree is unused as of yet, it wouldn't surprise me a skill to ameliorate tariffs (you know which palms to grease, learned the loopholes in the byzantine Luddite tax code, etc) appears there when balance is looked at again by modders now/Alex in the next release.

-If you want greater complexity, tariffs could vary based on system and local government (Corporate Tri-Tachs are all about free trade, right?), type of good being purchased/sold, local industry base or union jobs to protect, etc.

-Faction relationship could affect tariff rate too.  



As to surviving as a pirate/privateer; in history (1600-1700s) it has nearly always payed to be a privateer vs a pirate.  Privateers brought captured ships and goods back to port where government agents would have agreed to buy in advance, securing profits.  Pirates had no such luxury and the only money they could make came from what was carried by ships.  In addition, pirates were often unable to secure food, fresh water, or repairs to their ships as they could not enter ports safely.  With the extra large crew sizes needed as a pirate (50-100+ on boats that might hold 15 normally) nearly every boat that passed was captured just to take enough fresh water to survive.  This seems like an apt comparison to the situation in the Sector.

-It would be great if bounties (i.e. Letter of Marques) could be offered by governments hostile to each other, not just pirates.

-System/local stability should increase every time a bounty is collected in a system.  With appropriate scaling, tapering off at certain levels, etc.  The sheriff has to pay if <hero> shows up with a holo-log of pirates he just blew up.  But are the locals sure that these are the same pirates who looted the mining equipment last month?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 11:05:46 AM by Jazwana »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2