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News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Poll

Do you prefer fighting or helping the Crystanite?

Helping; the trinkets haven't done anything wrong!
- 15 (37.5%)
Depends; what pays more at the moment?
- 19 (47.5%)
Fighting; those xeno should be crushed like the glass they are!
- 6 (15%)

Total Members Voted: 40


Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 13

Author Topic: The Crystanite (Version 1.10b Hotfix) [0.8.1a compatible]  (Read 146172 times)

Tommy

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.3) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2015, 02:34:15 AM »

About 1) even if you do make the ammo regenerate, I would still not use that ship. Just thought this might help :)

At 2) at least you're actively trying to fix it, that works for me :)

Thank you!
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Tommy

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.3) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2015, 04:32:36 AM »

Also, I wanted to tell you that the drones on the Halo are not regenerating. Once they're gone, they're gone.

I have version 1.2. So yep, I saw they got fixed in 1.3
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 04:49:08 AM by Tommy »
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Nicke535

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.3) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2015, 04:55:31 AM »

Um... ok everone, i think something broke during mod upload...

My personal version is running fine, but when i download the new one i get the crash HELMUT was talking about... new upload going up in about 10 min, lets see if that fixes it.

Nicke535

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.3) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2015, 12:00:53 PM »

Ok, the mod upload is now finished. It took me WAY longer than expected, but it works now.

You must redownload the mod in order for it to work properly.

Tell me if something screws up.

HELMUT

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.3) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #64 on: March 26, 2015, 02:02:21 PM »

I've been playing a Crystanite campaign in Nexerelin for a while now, so here's my feedback. First, i'll talk about some of technical issues, then about the balance.

There is no numbers on the hullmods. When i use something, i like knowing exactly what it does rather than a vague "mobility increase" or something like that.

The sprites need some clean-up. There are some rogue, flying pixels around the ships. Granted, it's originally my fault but hey!

Some of the weapons (discomfort/curse beams) and ship systems (traveler drive) are obnoxiously loud. A single ship using those is already uncomfortable to the ears, several doing it become painful.

Some ships are "badly" builts. The Pin for example doesn't need the 10 flux capacity/venting its variant gave it. With only 8 points in venting, the ship become "flux neutral" so it can easily get away with 5/6 points in venting to work. I didn't noted all the ships with this problem but i think there are quite a few, especially in the frigate category.

Not every ships have a system. Nor a description. A bit sad.

Some ships roles overlap with each others, some are clearly better while the other are pretty worthless. There is no point in taking a Traveler scout when a Pin with some hullmods can already outrun everything in the game. Too many ships doing nearly the same things, a lot of them should disappear.


There's probably quite a few more issues like those, i haven't found all of them. But now i'm going to talk about the biggest problem of the Crystanite, balance.

In the modding guideline thread (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=9052.0) we can clearly see that the Crystanites breach some of the important rules. The biggest problem in my opinion is the "extreme" stats. In this case, armor and hull.

The stats divert way too much from vanilla and as such it tends to break the game. Some other mods suffered from similar problems (BGE, P9...) and there's no real workaround for this.

In the case of the Crystanites, the gigantic amount of armor renders any kind of weapon other than high-explosive nigh-worthless. Armor reduce the damage taken up to 85% depending on how much armor the ship have. The only way to take down the crystal ships is just to bring the biggest amount of high-explosive damage in a single hit, like reapers or hellbores. As such, frigates and destroyers can die incredibly easily by a single torpedo or a few other kind of missiles. While Crystanites frigates and destroyers are nearly invincible in some situations, they become utterly helpless in some others.

That's why in my campaign i quickly ditched frigates and destroyers to get the bigger ships with more armor. And cruisers are way, way more survivable and efficient than the lighter classes. Never during my campaign, no matter how recklessly i played, i have lost a single cruiser, because at nearly 10.000 armor, they could shrug off several reapers hits.

It was even worse with capital ships. During late game, my Payback class had 18900 armor, i could teleport right in the middle of a Neutrino fleet with several Jackhammers, going for a coffee with my payback standing there (not even on autopilot) and when i was back, the Phases array cannons with their ridiculous DPS were still trying to scratch the paint of my ship.

So yeah, the stats are too extreme. Because they have very low hull hit points, the smaller ships quickly become obsolete. And because they have an awful lot of armor, the bigger ships were basically indestructible. And that's bad for balance, because not only playing god mode isn't fun but it also renders useless half the ships of the faction.

On top of that, balancing a shield-less faction is hard. Exigency and Templars did it but they had to use some exotic systems and arcane scripts to make them work. If on top of that, you add extreme stats, i can't see how it could possibly work.

So, what to do then? First thing would be to reduce the extreme stats. A Payback with 10.000 hull (from 2500) and 3000 armor (from 13500 with the buil-in hull mods) would feel much more reasonable and still retains the main idea of the faction. After all, 3000 armor is nearly twice as much as an Onslaught, that's huge! But not completely absurd. In the end, rounding the stats corners would remove the main problem with the faction.

And then, there's the shield-less problem. While it's not as game-breaking as the other one, it still a big obstacle to overcome to reach balance. I can think of several solutions.

The easiest and most boring one: adding shields (some crystanites ships already have one). But because they already have very high armor, those would need to be quite crappy to compensate. The bright side is that Crystanites wouldn't need to be immune to emp anymore, which is good because emp weapons are a big part of the game and they currently ignore it. This idea also work with phase cloaks if you want something a bit more exotic.

The hardest but most interesting one: a fancy system like Exigency or Templars as i said earlier. The biggest trouble will be to actually find what kind of defense system they'll have and to make a script for it. You can probably find some clues on the radioactive code dump thread. (http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6452.0)

Another solution, actually my original idea when i sprited the original ships. A wall of drone that would act a shield. Two problems appear with this idea though. Firstly, it'll take the place of the ship system, unless you manage to add it via some weird script, which is basically the solution 2. The other problem is the AI currently have a weird obsession over drones and will try to shot them down at all cost and will often ignore the main ship. I'm pretty confident that Alex will eventually fix this but in the meantime, that's how things are.

So yeah, there's quite a bit of work but in the end it's up to you to see whether or not it's worth doing it. Personally i'm convinced that it could lead the mod quality from "rough" to "good". But yeah, you'll have to rethink quite a few things.
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Nicke535

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.3) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2015, 02:13:30 AM »

I've been playing a Crystanite campaign in Nexerelin for a while now, so here's my feedback. First, i'll talk about some of technical issues, then about the balance.

/.../

So yeah, there's quite a bit of work but in the end it's up to you to see whether or not it's worth doing it. Personally i'm convinced that it could lead the mod quality from "rough" to "good". But yeah, you'll have to rethink quite a few things.

Thank you! Finally some feedback i can work with. Lets take it from the top down;


Mechanics

The Hullmods lack numbers
Yeah, i should add that. I was a bit too lazy when i made them. You can expect this fixed in the next patch.

The sprites need some clean-up
Will get to it. I try to remove these as soon as i find them, but i should make a full check to get rid of them.

Loud weapons and systems
The Discomfort Beams have their volume turned down to 10% already but i suppose that was not enough. Will get right to it.

"Badly" built ships
This is one of the main issues with built in weapons; it is surprisingly easy to fit enough flux vents on small ships, and impossible on larger ones. I will attempt to rework this eventually.

Not every ship has a system or description
I am aware of the System issue. This mostly applies to my frigates, who are too small to mount Shard Swarm systems. Would you mind telling me the ships lacking a description? I thought i got them all in the last patch.

Too many ships with overlapping roles
Sigh. Yeah. I know about this. It is just that every time i make a patch, i just feel like making a new ship. I am working on a new sub-faction, so i might "move" some ships to that faction. Otherwise i dont see any simple solution. I simply have to purge my ships (prefferably with high explosive damage, or it will take a while.)


Balance
This has to be fixed. This mod is no longer the "experiment" it once was; it has become something were actual balance is necessary. I am working on a big patch, so i will attempt to rework them pretty seriously during said patch.

Armor
Yup. I have nothing to add, really, you are spot on the money. The frigates are killed by a single point-blank harpoon while i have only found a single weapon capable of alpha-striking anything larger than a destroyer (the obnoxiuosly powerful siege guns from a mod whose name i have forgotten, but those things had around 50 000 high-explosive burst damage!) Will get to work redoing this pretty much from scratch. I am actually thinking of making some wierd hull mod that reduces energy damage, but i am a bit worried about the balance there.

Shields
Yeah, drones are not the solution. They mess too much with the AI and blocks ship systems. I would LOVE to add some defensive system as replacement, but i am very worried about the way the AI would use these systems. If anyone have a suggestion you are free tell me (criticism makes me STRONGER!). My AI-programming skills are, well, null. That is why i have yet to fix the Shard Swarm glitch.

I once thought of making shields hullmod-based for the crystanite, but abolished the idea. Maybe it is time to seriously consider it again.


It will take time, but i will try. I will try so that one day, one day, the Crystanite will show in their full glory.

If anyone else has any suggestions bubbling inside of them; let it out! I need other people's opinions to improve my mod.

Protonus

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.3) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2015, 04:28:32 AM »

I can help you with those, but some won't guarantee anything too special. :)

Had them listed in this nest:
Spoiler
The Hullmods lack numbers
Yeah, i should add that. I was a bit too lazy when i made them. You can expect this fixed in the next patch.
Add a string description parameter within each hull mod, these strings can be in any order as long as they match accordingly with a hullmod's description in the Excel.
Spoiler
Code
    @Override
    public String getDescriptionParam(int index, HullSize hullSize) {

        if (index == 0) {
            return "" + "0%";
        } else if (index == 1) {
            return "" + "20%";
        } else if (index == 2) {
            return "" + "200%";
        } else if (index == 3) {
            return "" + "absorbing 33%";
        } else if (index == 4) {
            return "" + (int) (WEAPON_FLUX_REDUCTION * 100) + "%";
        } else if (index == 5) {
            return "" + (int) (VENT_NEGATE) + "%";
        } else if (index == 6) {
            return "" + "instantenously";
        } else {
            return null;
        }
    }
[close]


"Badly" built ships
This is one of the main issues with built in weapons; it is surprisingly easy to fit enough flux vents on small ships, and impossible on larger ones. I will attempt to rework this eventually.
EI and I had this issue before. For me, I just doubled the Multiplier within the Hullmod for Flux Dissipation and Capacity, while halving the mentioned Flux parameters in the ships' data, this will double the effect of Vents and Capacitors respectively.

Armor
Yup. I have nothing to add, really, you are spot on the money. The frigates are killed by a single point-blank harpoon while i have only found a single weapon capable of alpha-striking anything larger than a destroyer (the obnoxiuosly powerful siege guns from a mod whose name i have forgotten, but those things had around 50 000 high-explosive burst damage!) Will get to work redoing this pretty much from scratch. I am actually thinking of making some wierd hull mod that reduces energy damage, but i am a bit worried about the balance there.

Shields
Yeah, drones are not the solution. They mess too much with the AI and blocks ship systems. I would LOVE to add some defensive system as replacement, but i am very worried about the way the AI would use these systems. If anyone have a suggestion you are free tell me (criticism makes me STRONGER!). My AI-programming skills are, well, null. That is why i have yet to fix the Shard Swarm glitch.

I once thought of making shields hullmod-based for the crystanite, but abolished the idea. Maybe it is time to seriously consider it again.

Crystalline technology in most games usually thrive with armor, which I do actually like about this mod. But, you could give the Crystanite ships certain Damage Resistances.

Like the "getBeamDamageTakenMult" to 0.5f, which Exigency usually has that kind of resistance with, or reduced "getKineticDamageTakenMult" for Kinetic damage that my Faction usually thrives with.


As for Shields, if you really want to pursue, Armor should also be subjected to balancing. As some crystals can also be surprisingly brittle.
[close]

That's all I could say for now.  ;D
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 04:30:47 AM by Protonus »
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Nicke535

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.3) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2015, 08:39:36 AM »

I can help you with those, but some won't guarantee anything too special. :)
Thanks, always appreciate feedback.

Add a string description parameter within each hull mod, these strings can be in any order as long as they match accordingly with a hullmod's description in the Excel.
Spoiler
Code
    @Override
    public String getDescriptionParam(int index, HullSize hullSize) {

        if (index == 0) {
            return "" + "0%";
        } else if (index == 1) {
            return "" + "20%";
        } else if (index == 2) {
            return "" + "200%";
        } else if (index == 3) {
            return "" + "absorbing 33%";
        } else if (index == 4) {
            return "" + (int) (WEAPON_FLUX_REDUCTION * 100) + "%";
        } else if (index == 5) {
            return "" + (int) (VENT_NEGATE) + "%";
        } else if (index == 6) {
            return "" + "instantenously";
        } else {
            return null;
        }
    }
[close]
Dont mind if i do!

"Badly" built ships
This is one of the main issues with built in weapons; it is surprisingly easy to fit enough flux vents on small ships, and impossible on larger ones. I will attempt to rework this eventually.
EI and I had this issue before. For me, I just doubled the Multiplier within the Hullmod for Flux Dissipation and Capacity, while halving the mentioned Flux parameters in the ships' data, this will double the effect of Vents and Capacitors respectively.
Huh, did not think about that mathematical solution. I will probably go for a more "hullmod-heavy" approach, though.

Crystalline technology in most games usually thrive with armor, which I do actually like about this mod. But, you could give the Crystanite ships certain Damage Resistances.
Was thinking of that myself. Considering the way crystals are made up they are extremely brittle when exposed to blunt force, while being rather resistant to heat. I will take a look.

HELMUT

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.3) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2015, 09:41:08 AM »

Would you mind telling me the ships lacking a description? I thought i got them all in the last patch.

Actually there is only one, the Traveler tug.
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Nicke535

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.3) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2015, 01:26:11 PM »

Would you mind telling me the ships lacking a description? I thought i got them all in the last patch.

Actually there is only one, the Traveler tug.

Darn it, i somehow removed that during the Linux fixing. I will get right on it.

Deathfly

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.31) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2015, 06:35:50 PM »

Just notice the only pickable default AI for a weaponized shipsystem is the FLARE AI...
you could take a look at the Neutrino_PhaseMissileSystemAI I coded as an reference for weaponized shipsystem AI(I used to try to make it more universal, but adjustment it for a HE low guidance missile weapon at last).
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Protonus

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.31) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #71 on: March 30, 2015, 07:22:50 PM »

I have another idea for the Crystanite, which usually involves Scripting though.

Every damage taken to the armor, should a Crystanite managed to resist, "loses" fragments of itself to becomes Reactive shards that deal damage to the direction it receives.

Just a figment of my imagination, which I don't usually force others to succumb under it. ;)
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Nicke535

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.31) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2015, 12:34:19 AM »

I have another idea for the Crystanite, which usually involves Scripting though.

Every damage taken to the armor, should a Crystanite managed to resist, "loses" fragments of itself to becomes Reactive shards that deal damage to the direction it receives.

I would LOVE that. It is just that i do not even know where to start... Ok, time for brainstorm.

If i made a hidden, decorative, builtin weapon (like the Crystanite Armor Repairer) that runs an EveryFrame script, i should be able to detect damaged armor. I am however unsure if it would be possible to detect impacts, which is what i am looking for. If i can actually detect impacting projectiles, it would probably give me a form of vector. If i use said vector to spawn a projectile in that direction (provided i figure out how to spawn proper projectiles in scripts), it should be possible...

Will definitively look further into this.

Blaze

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.31) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2015, 12:45:49 PM »

Hm, let me offer my suggestions as well.

Give all ships Crystanite ships some passive HE damage resist, say 20%-50% (Remember that armor takes 200% damage from HE so you're still eating 180%-150% damage), depending on the armor hullmod on the ship. You can then tone down the armor on the larger ships. This also helps buff the smaller classes without messing with their armor levels.

Armor is significantly more effective if you can spread the damage around different sections. The AI is fairly okay at spreading it around once the front armor gets damaged, but the weapons on most offensive ships in the fleet are mounted forwards. Maybe adding an active defense system, like a "weapon" that fires large, slow-traveling crystal shards meant to absorb enemy weapon fire before breaking?

I see a good number of ships dedicated to PD, but most ships I've seen already have a fairly effective PD screen via discomfort beams. I'd like to see some other support ships. Maybe armor repair drones? Or minelayers for area denial?

Oh, the mercury is kind of a disappointment. It's one shot can disable maybe one frigate/destroyer, and then it's pretty much useless after that. I suggest you change it to a slow, long-range beam weapon that grows significantly stronger the longer it stays on target. You can move heavy shard launchers to a bomber perhaps.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 01:18:33 PM by Blaze »
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Nicke535

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Re: The Crystanite (Version 1.31) [0.65.2 compatible]
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2015, 07:00:02 AM »

Give all ships Crystanite ships some passive HE damage resist, say 20%-50% (Remember that armor takes 200% damage from HE so you're still eating 180%-150% damage), depending on the armor hullmod on the ship. You can then tone down the armor on the larger ships. This also helps buff the smaller classes without messing with their armor levels.
Interesting thought. I was actually having something like that in mind (which you will get to see... eventually. I am actually on vacation for the moment.)
 
Armor is significantly more effective if you can spread the damage around different sections. The AI is fairly okay at spreading it around once the front armor gets damaged, but the weapons on most offensive ships in the fleet are mounted forwards. Maybe adding an active defense system, like a "weapon" that fires large, slow-traveling crystal shards meant to absorb enemy weapon fire before breaking?
This might work as a form of flares on their (currently) systemless ships, or the ones where the systems need to be changed. I will check how well it works.

I see a good number of ships dedicated to PD, but most ships I've seen already have a fairly effective PD screen via discomfort beams. I'd like to see some other support ships. Maybe armor repair drones? Or minelayers for area denial?
"A good number" is an overstatement in my opinion; there is a single dedicated PD cruiser. That ship was specifically added because while most crystanite vessels have large amounts of PD, the ships manufactured by the CSB completely lacks PD. Other than that, there is only the Haystack, which excels at point defense, but it is not a support ship; it is the heaviest attack frigate the Crystanite have.

Now that i am done ranting about your choice of words, let me comment on the actual idea. Armor repair would probably be really tricky so i do not think i can add that. Minelayers would be easy to make, but very hard for the AI to use. I could probably make some form of "close support area denial" drones, but other than that i do not know how. Will definitely keep this in mind though.

Oh, the mercury is kind of a disappointment. It's one shot can disable maybe one frigate/destroyer, and then it's pretty much useless after that. I suggest you change it to a slow, long-range beam weapon that grows significantly stronger the longer it stays on target. You can move heavy shard launchers to a bomber perhaps.
The Mercury will get regenerating ammo in the next patch. I am worried that a shield-destroying Reaper Torpedo will be too much for a bomber. Also, a beam weapon would need to have pretty ridiculous damage for it to work as an anti-shield weapon.
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