Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.98a is out! (03/27/25)

Author Topic: Your own faction, colonies, non-linear tech trees, and components  (Read 7296 times)

Luna

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Want some water?
    • View Profile
Your own faction, colonies, non-linear tech trees, and components
« on: September 06, 2014, 10:53:45 AM »

  I'd like to have Vacuum's mechanic of basically making your own faction. The bad part of vacuum is, that which certain hull mods like heavy armor and the shield core removal thing, ships are literally indestructible. Like, you can't penetrate their armor. Especially with the Glaug ships. You could name your factions, add a different designation, like NLRW (New Lunar Republic Warship) and they're automatically added to any of the ships that belong to your faction. You can set which ships are produced by Omnifactories that you've built.

  Also, I want to be able to manage colonies on the surface of a planet, kinda GalCiv or Stardrive style. Well, maybe more like SimCity, but on a much larger scale. You can, of course, build individual buildings like lone outposts, but there are preset cities and towns you can build that have specific functions, like mining for resources for manufacturing parts and weapons, refineries, Drydocks, trade ports, civilian structures, planetery defenses, barracks, farms, ect.

  I think this would be cool in my opinion. I know it's not a very likely feature, as Starsector is all about blowing up all the things. But, while we're not doing that, or we're waiting for our capital ships to repair, as they should take a really long time instead of being instant on a station, we could manage our colonies. Also, you should be able to elect governors to manage your colonies for you, if your style of playing the game is Attack! Attack! Attack! and you don't want to do all that yourself.

  Since we can set our colonies to be automatically managed, it's only fair that the AI factions can as well. You can bomb a planet or send colony ships to claim planets. Also, most factions should start out with a random planet, with a station automatically in orbit, some basic infrastructure, and a small exploration fleet, consisting of a handful of scout frigates and maybe a destroyer. There should be a few shuttles as landing craft as well, to scout out a planets surface, as scanning technology hasn't been researched yet. Yes, I want a tech tree for this game. Techs should cost time and credits to pay the scientists. Where you get the scientists? You can hire them or train them at colleges. Tech, meaning some factions will start out technologically superior to everyone else, like the Tri-Tachyons should have more scientists and more starting techs, like PD lasers and more efficient engines.

  Also, Tech trees are not linear. I'm borrowing the idea from a game called Limit Theory, which is currently in development and currently awesome. Most games go with the idea, "Oh, you researched this? That's it, you're done. You can't make this much better, until you get to the next Mk. level or whatever." I don't want that. The next mark level doesn't matter to me. You have to research the base technology, like Tactical Lasers or whatever you want, but you can improve on those techs by researching them again. Improvements can take far less time, and they can have bonuses and drawbacks. Like, if they use less flux per tick, they have a chance to also do less damage. Not that improving a weapon will always have drawbacks, but they have a chance to have drawbacks depending on how skilled your scientists are.

  This isn't even bring components into the equation. You can also fully modify your weapons. The first modification I'm going to talk about is for beam weapons. You can limit their range in exchange for doing more damage. useful if you don't want your PD lasers to focus on the enemy battlecruiser shooting at you, but rather focusing on the missiles it's shooting off at you. They'll also be able to shoot them down faster, but it's basically the same as if it were doing less damage and firing from farther away. It'll most likely be shot down within the same time-frame. You can also increase their range to have a sniper weapon thing, but they'll also do less damage, in addition to having increased flux costs to maintain the confinement field for the laser or whatever. Something fancy like that. All you Trekkies out there can come up with some random BS to use! :)

  There would be more modifications you can do to weapons of all sizes and type, but I haven't thought of any more yet. Now, components are what your weapons are actually made of. Your starting light machine guns are crap, but when you're farther up the tech tree, you can replace the firing and reloading mechanisms to make them shoot faster, have a higher range, and the bullets just plain go faster, so they're more accurate, but the flux costs are virtually the same. That's replacing the internal components. You can add what I call tactical upgrades to the exterior, like more ammo canisters or laser sights, improving accuracy. They would add mass to the weapon making them turn a tad slower, but you'd rather have a better and slower turret rather then a turret that can track something moving at 500 SU a second.

  Obviously, you don't have to upgrade your weapons manually. You can just upgrade them, make the previous version obsolete, then have your ships dock to have their weapons upgraded. You don't have to make the components individually, you get them for free, unless they dramatically change how a weapon works, or it dramatically increases a weapon's stats, for reasons of balance. You still don't have to make them, but they are expensive. And they'll probably take a while to install, so if you're refitting your capital ship that has mostly the weapon you upgraded, and you're attacked, you can't use that specific weapon and your battleship's firepower is greatly diminished. It's still operational, but you'd best get it to high-tail it outta there. You can also upgrade your weapon's armor, so they get knocked offline less often.

  In the beginning of a game, you can only build low tech frigates and destroyers. As you progress, you can either find the blueprints for ships and make them, but they are very rare. The Hegemony actually starts out with a few planets in a system, and a few cruisers, but no Onslaughts. If you want an onslaught, you gotta find on on the surface of a planet, but if they are there, they most likely crashed and are too heavily damaged to use. You can still scavenge parts from it, though. Anyways, back on track, you need to research different classes of ships to be able to build them, but that takes a while and the classes of ships have to go through different stages of prototyping, which can take weeks or even months. You may buy ships from other factions. technically, you can reverse engineer it, but most of the time, they'll tell you not to do that, and if they find out that you're doing that, you're gonna have a major problem on your hands. Sometimes, they'll consider the ship obsolete, and they'll let you reverse-engineer it, and they'll usually actually give you the blueprint for the vessel.

  Why only be able to upgrade your weapon's components? You can upgrade your shields, armor, engines, sensors, everything! But wait, there's more! You can also get different types of the things I mentions, like light or heavy armor. Their names are obvious, and one slows you down, but protects you better. The opposite holds true for light armor. Different shields can wrap directly around your ship, encompassing it entirely, but if you have really powerful shields, smaller ships can't cower inside them if they're being shot at. If you have a bubble shield, frigates can take cover inside your shield. Different engines, too. some are insulated and take less damage, but make your ship slower. Burst engines are very fast, but are pretty up-protected, as the amount of heat radiating would most likely melt any sort of armor. Sensors are just upgraded to have longer range and being able to tell you more about another ship.

  Next thing. Cargo ships usually have detachable components. For example the Gemini has 2 frontal cargo pods. You can change the around to hold fuel, people, and obviously cargo. They can also be modified to have more weapons on those modules. The weapon mounts will severely limit any cargo space. Atlas' can do much the same, except they have a lot more space for different modules. Certain types of warships can have different modules as well.

  Anyways, I think that's all for now.

  -Luna
Logged
Consider fully automatic Russian roulette

arcibalde

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1730
    • View Profile
Re: Your own faction, colonies, non-linear tech trees, and components
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2014, 12:21:50 PM »

In short that is not how this game will work.
Logged
Creator of:
Relics MOD - vanilla balanced - Campaign integrated
Vanilla addon MOD - vanilla balanced - Campaign integrated
Project ONI MOD - mission only

FasterThanSleepyfish

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 730
  • Blub
    • View Profile
Re: Your own faction, colonies, non-linear tech trees, and components
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2014, 01:27:11 PM »

Quote
  I'd like to have Vacuum's mechanic of basically making your own faction. The bad part of vacuum is, that which certain hull mods like heavy armor and the shield core removal thing, ships are literally indestructible. Like, you can't penetrate their armor. Especially with the Glaug ships.

Vacuum is bizarre. I suggest you take it up with Xenoargh, he is in charge of its development.

Quote
You could name your factions, add a different designation, like NLRW (New Lunar Republic Warship) and they're automatically added to any of the ships that belong to your faction.

Just rename your ships when you buy them.

Quote
You can set which ships are produced by Omnifactories that you've built.

Ship production is limited to major factions with the economic drive of several planets behind them.

Quote
  Also, I want to be able to manage colonies on the surface of a planet, kinda GalCiv or Stardrive style. Well, maybe more like SimCity, but on a much larger scale. You can, of course, build individual buildings like lone outposts, but there are preset cities and towns you can build that have specific functions, like mining for resources for manufacturing parts and weapons, refineries, Drydocks, trade ports, civilian structures, planetery defenses, barracks, farms, ect.

As per lore, the starsector universe is incapable of developing new technology or colonizing planets. While there may be some outpost management planned for vanilla, the actual feature is far off and highly theoretical.

Quote
  I think this would be cool in my opinion. I know it's not a very likely feature, as Starsector is all about blowing up all the things. But, while we're not doing that, or we're waiting for our capital ships to repair, as they should take a really long time instead of being instant on a station, we could manage our colonies. Also, you should be able to elect governors to manage your colonies for you, if your style of playing the game is Attack! Attack! Attack! and you don't want to do all that yourself.

Starsector is set in a dystopian future were the sector you are in is not self sufficient. The ending of the game will most likely involve total economic collapse. Again, colonizing is out of the question since most worlds are inhospitable or empty for a reason.

Quote
  Since we can set our colonies to be automatically managed, it's only fair that the AI factions can as well. You can bomb a planet or send colony ships to claim planets. Also, most factions should start out with a random planet, with a station automatically in orbit, some basic infrastructure, and a small exploration fleet, consisting of a handful of scout frigates and maybe a destroyer. There should be a few shuttles as landing craft as well, to scout out a planets surface, as scanning technology hasn't been researched yet. Yes, I want a tech tree for this game. Techs should cost time and credits to pay the scientists. Where you get the scientists? You can hire them or train them at colleges. Tech, meaning some factions will start out technologically superior to everyone else, like the Tri-Tachyons should have more scientists and more starting techs, like PD lasers and more efficient engines.

Again, the Sector's dependance on the Domain of Man to help it survive is why the sector economy is probably going to fail/become super small. Everything is going to sh*t, not getting better or advancing technologically.

Quote
Also, Tech trees are not linear. I'm borrowing the idea from a game called Limit Theory, which is currently in development and currently awesome. Most games go with the idea, "Oh, you researched this? That's it, you're done. You can't make this much better, until you get to the next Mk. level or whatever." I don't want that. The next mark level doesn't matter to me. You have to research the base technology, like Tactical Lasers or whatever you want, but you can improve on those techs by researching them again. Improvements can take far less time, and they can have bonuses and drawbacks. Like, if they use less flux per tick, they have a chance to also do less damage. Not that improving a weapon will always have drawbacks, but they have a chance to have drawbacks depending on how skilled your scientists are.

You are basically stating the combat skills tree should be applied to the tech tree. Honestly, that defeats the purpose of balance, since endgame ships will have 9999999999999 hull and 0.0001 efficiency shields. That, and Starsector isn't supposed to have a tech tree progression meta-game. The trees are meant to show experience, not faction-wide ship boosts.

Quote
This isn't even bring components into the equation. You can also fully modify your weapons. *snip* so they get knocked offline less often.

Well, your skill tree and hullmods  customize your weapons abilities to a certain extent. Alex has also talked about weapon quailty, but creating new weapons entirely defeats the purpose of balance. Then there would be a race to find the best DPS stats, the best PD stats, which is not good for gameplay either.

Quote
In the beginning of a game, you can only build low tech frigates and destroyers. As you progress, you can either find the blueprints for ships and make them, but they are very rare. The Hegemony actually starts out with a few planets in a system, and a few cruisers, but no Onslaughts. If you want an onslaught, you gotta find on on the surface of a planet, but if they are there, they most likely crashed and are too heavily damaged to use. You can still scavenge parts from it, though. Anyways, back on track, you need to research different classes of ships to be able to build them, but that takes a while and the classes of ships have to go through different stages of prototyping, which can take weeks or even months. You may buy ships from other factions. technically, you can reverse engineer it, but most of the time, they'll tell you not to do that, and if they find out that you're doing that, you're gonna have a major problem on your hands. Sometimes, they'll consider the ship obsolete, and they'll let you reverse-engineer it, and they'll usually actually give you the blueprint for the vessel.

Again, 99% sure there will be no sector evolution or player owned manufacturing of ships. Mod it!

Quote
  Why only be able to upgrade your weapon's components? You can upgrade your shields, armor, engines, sensors, everything! But wait, there's more! You can also get different types of the things I mentions, like light or heavy armor. Their names are obvious, and one slows you down, but protects you better. The opposite holds true for light armor. Different shields can wrap directly around your ship, encompassing it entirely, but if you have really powerful shields, smaller ships can't cower inside them if they're being shot at. If you have a bubble shield, frigates can take cover inside your shield. Different engines, too. some are insulated and take less damage, but make your ship slower. Burst engines are very fast, but are pretty up-protected, as the amount of heat radiating would most likely melt any sort of armor. Sensors are just upgraded to have longer range and being able to tell you more about another ship.

Again, stat modding completely defeats the purpose of balance and has no gameplay value. I can imagine it would only confuse new players even more than the current Starsector builds do. Poor game design = a 5 1/2 page tutorial on how to win the game through optimal ship stat/weapon stat modding.

Quote
  Next thing. Cargo ships usually have detachable components. For example the Gemini has 2 frontal cargo pods. You can change the around to hold fuel, people, and obviously cargo. They can also be modified to have more weapons on those modules. The weapon mounts will severely limit any cargo space. Atlas' can do much the same, except they have a lot more space for different modules. Certain types of warships can have different modules as well.

Buy a Dram and a Gemini. Part of Starsector's charm is arguably the different ship styles included into the game. Still, interchangeable ship parts makes balance ridiculously hard and spreadsheet-style (Y'know, the columns of data you study to get the optimal ship design for your fleet) gameplay.


OK, I'm done now. Sorry if I seem condescending, but Starsector is nearly perfect in the direction it is heading in right now. 
Logged

Lucian Greymark

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
    • View Profile
Re: Your own faction, colonies, non-linear tech trees, and components
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2014, 01:34:21 PM »

I think this post needs a tldr, but from what I read you're essentially looking to take star sector and make it your own game. More to the point you're looking to turn it into a 4x style strategy game, where as (And correct me if I'm wrong) Alex wanted this game to be more of an admiral simulator, or at least a fleet command game. Planets are outside our control, and will continue to be outside our control, because it's not in the spirit of the game to have then within it. Ships don't have interchangeable or detachable components because everything is made from blueprints or is tacked together with string and prayers. The tech tree doesn't branch because it's not really a 'tech' tree, it's a collection of personal or communal skills that the captain or engineers become proficient at.

Modifying weapons... why? The people in universe barely understand the technology they're working with let along how to modify it to such an extent. As for exploring planets to find blueprints, I think the whole point of the end game is that the blueprints have been in circulation for a long, long time, you just have to find which ever station is using them and buy your op capital ship there.

I like a lot of the ideas you've mentioned, but not only do they not mesh with each other, but they don't mesh with the way the game works. Personally I'd like to be able to command my admiral in first person from the deck of my conquest as it obliterates a horde of enemy ships, but it's not Alex's vision for the game, as I understand it anyway.


I think most people are pretty happy with the way this game is going, but that doesn't really matter, what matters is that Alex likes the way this game is going. It's his vision after all. And that's a wonderful thing, what you have here is a laundry list of things you want for your own vision, go mod it, create it, fund it. Do anything to bring it to life. but don't demand someone else compromise their own vision to make it for you.

I hope you do see this vision to fruition though, because I would enjoy playing it.
Logged

silentstormpt

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1060
    • View Profile
Re: Your own faction, colonies, non-linear tech trees, and components
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2014, 01:39:49 PM »

Also, mods are here to do those crazy mechanics, everything or at list parts of it will be done by a mod or several mods somewhere (ofc depending on how the framework is done and what it has available).
Logged

CopperCoyote

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 451
    • View Profile
Re: Your own faction, colonies, non-linear tech trees, and components
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2014, 01:43:23 PM »

Walls of text are intimidating. It might be better to separate out each individual idea. That way it's easier to talk about one thing and not lose parts of the discussion.

Colonies: Eventually there will be some sort of space station we can command. It's not going to be in the next update though so who knows what it'll look like.

Tech tree: The different technologies levels are different schools of thought not improving performance. It's really tough to have procedurally generated stuff if you don't plan to have it from the beginning. Randomizing it would be hard to do, and the factions would lose some personality. They may or may not even get what they need to function.

Upgradable weapons: I'd love to be able to tune my weapons individually. The interface is really crowded already though. Could you imagine trying to find the right weapon when you list of weapons suddenly had 1 listing of each weapon instead of each type? In a way the skills are an abstraction of you tuning your weapons anyway. One of the best example is the missile specialization skill.

Switching modules: The atlas already has that in its fluff. Albeit only for cargo. In the gedune mod there are transport ships that switch between fuel and cargo (sorta). They're actually separate ships so you still need to buy both and use the one you need. In Uomoz's sector you can change ships around with the right supplies. It's really neat. It may be implemented in future Starsector, but if not then it's moddable.
Logged
Itches are scratched. Back-rubs are savored.

HELMUT

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1365
    • View Profile
Re: Your own faction, colonies, non-linear tech trees, and components
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2014, 01:48:19 PM »

Actually i kinda like this idea. Having your own faction, a bit like in Exerelin and managing all the stuffs. There were an old mod "fleet control mod" made by Verrius if i recall correctly that offered relatively similar options.

About the ships/weapons modification, i'm more bothered about the balance rather than the lore. Lore wise you can modify anything, Pirates did this with the Buffalo so there's no reason it wouldn't be possible with weapons. Blueprints don't allow it? Strap a third barrel and add some duct tape and it will.

Balance wise however i'm a bit worried of making a 1500 range tactical laser and boating my tuned Medusa with it. Then again, limits can be added to those modifications to avoid broken weirdness, also other factions could have their own custom guns/ships.

For now SS need some of the indispensable features like trading/diplomacy and the officer system. Maybe after.
Logged

Luna

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Want some water?
    • View Profile
Re: Your own faction, colonies, non-linear tech trees, and components
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2014, 04:03:21 PM »

I'd love to mod this into the game. 2 glaring problems for me, though. 1) the file would most likely be gigantic seeing as this would change the way a lot of the game works. 2) As I have stated before, I don't have any idea of how to code. Maybe if I learned, this wouldn't be difficult, but I'm too lazy to learn any other language then English and French. Perhaps Russian. :I
Logged
Consider fully automatic Russian roulette

Debido

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1183
    • View Profile
Re: Your own faction, colonies, non-linear tech trees, and components
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2014, 09:51:13 PM »

I'm sure if you wanted a huge triple A game Alex would be more than happy to take your millions of dollars that are required to get a project like that done.
Logged

Luna

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 115
  • Want some water?
    • View Profile
Re: Your own faction, colonies, non-linear tech trees, and components
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2014, 06:45:37 AM »

Millions of dollars? Maybe, when I become a neurosurgeon or something. :I
Logged
Consider fully automatic Russian roulette