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Author Topic: Gun Nuts  (Read 10304 times)

The Soldier

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Gun Nuts
« on: July 17, 2014, 02:14:31 PM »

So, I might be one of the few people here to actually own a gun.  I've got a 20 gauge shotgun, Remington 870 - I'll use this as a reference point later on. (note - I've fired 12 guage shotguns as well from friendly range buddies, using slugs, buckshot, and birdshot, and the recoil wasn't too much more than the 20 gauge)

I went to a shooting range with my friend, he brought a rifle and two pistols, I brought my shotgun.  The rifle was the Mosin-Nagant 91/30.  I shouldered the beast, fired it, and there went my shoulder.  I probably went through 50 or 60 rounds of 7.62x54r that day, and my shoulders still hurt form that experience two days after. o.O

So, my question - why does this Mosin-Nagant seem to recoil a helluva lot more than what I've seen around the web, and why does it recoil more than a shotgun?  Shotguns in general have pretty hefty recoil, but this Mosin just blew apart my left shoulder on the first shot.  I know how to hold rifles and shotguns, it comes after hard-earned experience skeet-shooting.  The rifle was 1943 vintage, and the ammunition was mil surp, still in the can when we took it out on the field - might the massive recoil have to do with that?

Or is it just me, and the Mosin-Nagant somehow has more kick than a shotgun?  I want to know if it's the rifle or the ammunition (or something mechanical and not just my imagination), in case something's wrong with it, maybe it can get fixed.
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The Soldier

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Re: Gun Nuts
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2014, 05:59:46 PM »

Hey, someone else who uses guns. :)

Yea, I found that odd myself.  But I just don't feel a difference, both the 12 gauge and the 20 gauge felt pretty similar in my hands.  As for the Mosin-Nagant, I think I may have been persuaded by the general opinion that a shotgun has the most recoil out of a lot of the mid-caliber weapons out there, maybe out to a 30-06 or a .44 Magnum.

Well, I do that steel-cased ammo generally isn't healthy for any firearm, but I've heard stuff about pistols really only disliking steel-cased ammo.  The Mosin-Nagant fed the mil surp ammo pretty well (minus a rather hard to work bolt, but I'll have find out how to fix that, or maybe it's just natural).  There was some pretty nasty rips in the casing, though - that might be a problem.  A good half-inch long tear in the case, coming from the base neck of the case up and down.

And I don't think it's the length of the rifle, it's still in it's standard WWII configuration.  I did find the buttstock just a bit short, but I don't really think it being an inch too short makes the recoil almost unbearable.  Maybe the fact that the Mosin-Nagant's buttstock is made of steel and my 20 gauge shotgun has a nice rubber recoil pad has exponentially increased the Mosin's recoil. o.O
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xenoargh

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Re: Gun Nuts
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2014, 10:21:09 AM »

I've never fired a MN, but similar stuff.  7.62X54 is pretty brutal, period, even in modern stuff with decent recoil compensation.  Installing a pad will make a big difference in the felt recoil; the modern pads spread the energy a lot.  A modern stock would also help a lot, but for the cost of just buying a Mosin in better shape...

Anyhow, the Mosin is a bit of a beast, ergonomically, and from the symptoms, I suspect yours hasn't gotten cleaned well after firing as well, and almost certainly needs a proper field-strip.  This is a good primer on the gun, from a practical standpoint; note especially the issues with cleaning and mil-surplus ammo with caustic primers

I'd strip it and give it a thorough cleaning, if the above link hasn't already convinced you or your buddy to just pick another one up at a gun show. 

If you or your buddy have never field-stripped one:

here ya go :)
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The Soldier

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Re: Gun Nuts
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2014, 11:03:02 AM »

Well, looks like someone is taking advantage of embedded videos already. :)

Yea, a recoil pad is pretty much a must.  Didn't realize that the stock was so short - I'm usually shooting a .22 air rifle out my backyard at home (in addition to the shotgun at the range every now and again), and it has a pretty short stock (although in addition to a half-pistol grip).  Guess I'll have to get my friend to attach a nice, long recoil pad to the back of this monster of a rifle, that will probably solve it.
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MidnightSun

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Re: Gun Nuts
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2014, 01:45:20 PM »

Remington 870 is a nice, solid shotgun--fired a lot of 12-gauge shells from the 870, and it's a lot of fun.

It's not so easy to compare recoil, since there's a ton of factors that affect it. Size of the shell/bullet, the particular weapon, the construction of the stock, etc, etc.

Another thing to note is that rifles have a higher muzzle velocity than shotguns, so the kick is "sharper," whereas a shotgun's recoil is more like a strong shove. So, the force might be comparable, but the "felt" recoil is stronger from the rifle.
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ahrenjb

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Re: Gun Nuts
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2014, 10:46:12 AM »

Resident industry professional here.

There is nothing wrong with your 91/30 rifle. The stout recoil experienced when shooting Mosin-Nagant pattern rifles is a product of a few different factors all working together. Sparing all the pointless technical details, the 7.62x54r cartridge generally produces higher muzzle energies than your typical 12 gauge shotgun load. Especially if we're talking about the most common loads people tend to shoot, 2-3/4" #7/8 shot. Shotguns have much lower chamber pressures and muzzle velocities than full power rifle loads, and we're all familiar with the relationship between mass, velocity, and energy. Given the much higher velocity, a rifle is also accelerating its projectile much more quickly, meaning a sharper recoil.

So, besides higher energy and faster reaction, you're experiencing a higher perceived recoil because of the basic design of the Nagant rifle. It's a straight, steel and wood stick terminating in an unforgiving steel butt-plate. There is no mitigation of the impact here, so all the recoil energy is delivered in a very short amount of time. Compound this with the fact that if your stance and hold on the rifle are imperfect, you'll take a lot more of the brunt of the recoil. If you got your rifle with the original crate accessories (sling, ammo pouches, etc), learn how to use the sling around your arm as a stabilization tool. Additionally, do a little reading on proper holds and posture for firing high powered rifles, and finally... Pull that thing in tight to your shoulder. If you are holding it tenderly, you're giving the rifle time to accelerate backwards worsening the effect.

Hope this helps!!! Enjoy.
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The Soldier

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Re: Gun Nuts
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2014, 12:25:43 PM »

Hey, thanks for the explanation ahrenjb. :) Appreciate it!  I'll have to remember to look up stances and the such before I go shooting next time - that will probably help a lot.  And my friend already learned the hard way to keep pretty much any firearm, the Mosin in particular, tight in his shoulder - I think he's still bruised from it. ;)

Anyways, thanks for all the responses!  I'll try to use 'em to preserve my shoulder. :)
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frogbones

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Re: Gun Nuts
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2014, 03:04:06 PM »

heh....yeah I have a few.

Noveske AR15


1944 K98 Mauser in 8mm


Kimber Ultra Carry II


M1A SOCOMII


PSA AR15 and GLOCK19


Ruger BlackHawk in .30carbine


Rock Island Armory 4inch 1911...Conceal carry piece


S&W 686 .357


S&W M&P 9C



just a few.....
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PCCL

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Re: Gun Nuts
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2014, 12:33:13 PM »

gah, you guys put my name to shame :P

I shot M1903 Springfields back in the Cadet Corp.... On a mat... with bipods.... with 3 or 4 instructors always floating over you....

Guess that's Canada for ya  :'(
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