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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f  (Read 626886 times)

Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #660 on: January 03, 2016, 03:22:03 PM »

Other topic: Shouldnt you comission to get the best Templar ships/weapons? Feels a bit cheating to just massacre everybody at a Holy Crusade and get rep that way. I mean really everybody should hate you when you get your hands on those ships AND weapons (like how every other major faction military market work).

-Hey where did you get those new shiny weapons and ships?
-Oh nowhere special Im just best buddies with the Templars and sold me some stuff. I like you guys too tho no worries.
-WHAAAT? You are buddies with the Templars who massacre everybody in the sector? Die die die.

Massacring everyone in a crusade tends to drop your rep really quickly.
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Gezzaman

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #661 on: January 03, 2016, 04:32:42 PM »

I love capturing their ships. haven't managed to capture a carrier though, ever, even though they are relatively easy for me to destroy when i am prepared. [ i am totally suggesting you buff them in some way ]

A ship full of heavy maulers totally wreck ANY Templar ship
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StarSchulz

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #662 on: January 03, 2016, 05:43:30 PM »

I usually use Gauss cannons.

I guess what i realize is that the skill tree makes Templar ships a breeze when you have it all and a reasonable ship. Armor in general is pretty weak compared to normal shields, So once you make a crack and shoot that spot any ship falls. Especially in the case of the carrier, where if you shoot the very front of it repeatedly enough it will just crumble. I was able to kite it and destroy it once in a frigate but i can't remember which one.

Does the AI know when it's armor is destroyed, and to turn that armor away from the enemy?

SpacePoliticianAndaZealot

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #663 on: January 04, 2016, 02:18:52 AM »

I usually use Gauss cannons.

I guess what i realize is that the skill tree makes Templar ships a breeze when you have it all and a reasonable ship. Armor in general is pretty weak compared to normal shields, So once you make a crack and shoot that spot any ship falls. Especially in the case of the carrier, where if you shoot the very front of it repeatedly enough it will just crumble. I was able to kite it and destroy it once in a frigate but i can't remember which one.

Does the AI know when it's armor is destroyed, and to turn that armor away from the enemy?
I've noticed that behaviour with all phase cloaking ships, and since all Templar ships are technically such...
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Schwartz

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #664 on: January 07, 2016, 12:04:17 AM »

I worked my way up with Tachyon Lances and Blasters this time around. Never been a fan of explosive against Templars. It's usually HVDs or Shard weaponry. The Energy lineup is also fairly forgiving against them.

The easiest way to get a foothold are actually Clarent Tubes and ROLANDs. Even if you have to make sacrifices to fit these, they'll kill smaller Templar ships before they even reach visible range. Might not be the worst idea to give the various Clarents a flux cost just so there's some small disadvantage to fitting these on non-Templar ships.
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Taverius

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #665 on: January 07, 2016, 02:15:18 AM »

Clarent Tubes are not that much of an issue tbh, its just the Roland systems - scaling up to 4x the dps and 4x the ammo is a bit much for a M->L missile upgrade.
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Unbroken

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #666 on: January 07, 2016, 08:59:45 AM »

Clarent Tubes are not that much of an issue tbh, its just the Roland systems - scaling up to 4x the dps and 4x the ammo is a bit much for a M->L missile upgrade.

This. So much this.

Clarents by themselves are only very dangerous to frigates, namely ones that rely heavily on maneuver or specialized ship systems to survive like Wolves, Hyperions, Tempests, Imaginoses, etc. as a single Clarent strike on the ship itself is (99% of the time) an instant kill. When fighting the Templars, I will never deploy any frigates I own - especially Tempests - since they are guarenteed to get smoked by a Clarent at some point during the battle. The only time Clarents become a serious problem is when you spot 2+ Teuton Smiter wings with an Archbishop, since they'll constantly rearm and spam you to death.

The ROLAND, on the other hand, is a harbinger of destruction. In my last Nexerelin playthrough as the Mayorate, I went out of my way to go ROLAND farming to put together a Del Azarchel with two of these + a Clarent tube, expanded racks & ECCM, after using the console to test the design out. With missile spec, you get 15 shots from both racks and with the ship's Fast Missile Racks, even the AI can fire them at an unholy rate. When it's dry, it'll still autoload at a little under one shot/minute. Each volley deals something like 25k damage with the correct officer skillset, and it is effectively unavoidable for most ships. It's also very difficult to kill that cruiser, given the ROLAND's absurd range and my habit of positioning artillery ships well away from the front. All of that comes in a package that has a deployment cost of 18, with combat aptitude 10.

All I can say is, the game basically ended once I had that thing operational. Battles where I was fighting two or even three very large enemy fleets at once were largely trivial, given how many ships would get vaporized during each volley; although the AI doesn't use its ammo as well as I'd like, there often wasn't a lot of overkill going on, so leftover Clarents often find new targets and either overload or kill them outright. Only once the Del Azarchel had run out of ammo did the tempo of the fighting slow down, but by then winning the battle is only a matter of cleaning up.

Even against the Templars themselves, it was funny how quickly the ROLANDs overwhelm a Paladin or an Archbishop by driving its flux through the roof and punching gaping holes in its armor, leaving it an easy target for me to finish off - assuming another volley doesn't kill it first. Crusaders get seriously gimped if they eat a full barrage, while Jesuits and Martyrs straight-up die.

I'd suggest reducing the ROLAND's range, slightly slowing the initial missile, and having it spawn only three Clarents instead of four. E: Just noticed the unreleased patch notes giving these big flux costs to fire - will have to see how it affects things.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 09:07:28 AM by Unbroken »
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #667 on: January 07, 2016, 09:54:18 AM »

There are some changes to the weapon, but...

I'd suggest reducing the ROLAND's range,

To what?  As far as your concerns go, even the bog standard Clarent's relatively short range is enough to kill everybody, since it's longer than any ballistic/energy weapon.

and having it spawn only three Clarents instead of four.

From the point of view of Templar ships, that would make the ROLAND straight-up worse than the other large weapons in a major way.  I'd honestly rather remove the weapon completely than do that; there's a reason I changed it to four in the first place.
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Taverius

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #668 on: January 07, 2016, 10:37:27 AM »

I guess there's the option to drop the submunition count but increase the total ammo to keep the final clarent count invariant, but that would change the tactical considerations going up against templars in a significant way. Either that or drop the submunition count by 2 but increase the ammo and RoF by 2.

I hope the flux cost works out for you!
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Megas

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #669 on: January 07, 2016, 10:39:34 AM »

When I played Templars, using ROLAND instead of other Templar heavy weapons meant get your damage now instead of later.  It was fun watching things die now, but then when it was time to slog through the rest of the enemy fleet, I missed the firepower (and pseudo-PD in case of Juger) other large Templar weapons gave.  Regenerating Clarents meant mounting ROLAND was not a waste of OP once it was spent, but I generally prefer higher sustained DPS of other weapons.  What ROLAND is great for is greatly powering up Conquest, Astral, and other ships whose biggest mount is a missile.  Astral morphs from a punching bag to a nightmare.

If I want to abuse Clarents, I would use carrier and Smiter wings.  I have not tried this in 0.7 since Smiters are two per wing.  Then again, I can probably use more wings than before now that Logistics has been done away with.
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KopiG

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #670 on: January 07, 2016, 10:48:11 AM »

When I played Templars, using ROLAND instead of other Templar heavy weapons meant get your damage now instead of later.  It was fun watching things die now, but then when it was time to slog through the rest of the enemy fleet, I missed the firepower (and pseudo-PD in case of Juger) other large Templar weapons gave.  Regenerating Clarents meant mounting ROLAND was not a waste of OP once it was spent, but I generally prefer higher sustained DPS of other weapons.  What ROLAND is great for is greatly powering up Conquest, Astral, and other ships whose biggest mount is a missile.  Astral morphs from a punching bag to a nightmare.

If I want to abuse Clarents, I would use carrier and Smiter wings.  I have not tried this in 0.7 since Smiters are two per wing.  Then again, I can probably use more wings than before now that Logistics has been done away with.
I can tell you from personal experience that a Cathedral ship + like 20 smiter wings is a godlike fleet :) Nothing can touch them. Truly nothing :) Also IMO leave ROLAND as it is just give me a large version of the Longinus Heavy Laser :P
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Schwartz

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #671 on: January 07, 2016, 10:52:43 AM »

I wouldn't want to see either of them removed tbh. They're powerful and fun to use. What they need though is another downside that isn't OP - they already cost a fair amount to fit. I think a 3-split ROLAND wouldn't be that bad at all. Still worth it. You can't 1:1 compare it to the other heavy Templar weapons because it's a missile system and those have intrinsic advantages. Hell, even a 3-split and flux cost on top would still be 'in line' for what you're getting out of them. Slower fire rate might be another thing.

Arondight, Juger or Joyeuse are all powerful but none of them can reduce enemy strength before combat even begins. All the non-missile weapons are slowed down a fair bit by Templar shields - combat as it should be. In comparison, Clarents and ROLANDs are the 'uranium bullet'. 2 Aurora/Apogee with ROLANDs in your fleet means that ALL Templar frigates will be destroyed by the time they reach visible range, and they'll make quick work of larger ships as well. Regen means that the damage is not just heavy up-front but will continue throughout combat. They leave the Aurora/Apogee with no flux impairment for the power it's wielding. The hardest part really is finding ROLANDs, for which you'll have to tough it out and fight Templar fleets for a while.

Part of the issue of course is officers with Missile Spec. As the game works right now, there are just some strategies that will excel. Missile boats tuned to the max are one such strategy, and Clarents are the best missiles. As such, this is mostly a player problem. NPC fleets don't usually use 'em like this, except for the dreaded Bishop + fighter spam.
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Megas

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #672 on: January 07, 2016, 11:06:52 AM »

I think we can compare ROLAND to other heavy weapons because the one Templar ship that can use heavy weapons (Paladin; excluding the Pope bonus boss) has a large universal.  Considering lore, I doubt Templars intentionally designed their weapons for Domain ships (the tech they want to eradicate).

Yes, ROLANDs do thin out fleets at first contact.  After that, if the remaining fleet is large enough, it is a slog without the big guns.  The other Templar heavy guns are great in some way.  Juger is the slow Doom 3-style BFG shot - pseudo PD and high-damage all-in-one.  Joyese is like a long-range super-charged TPC.  Arondight is practically unblockable stun (at least in the 0.65 days).  ROLAND simply means the first few enemy ships disappear, then you finish off the rest the enemy without additional support.  Regeneration is slow enough that its DPS is a shadow of other heavy Templar weapons.  It makes ROLAND usable after the initial fireworks are over.

Quote
I can tell you from personal experience that a Cathedral ship + like 20 smiter wings is a godlike fleet Smiley Nothing can touch them. Truly nothing Smiley Also IMO leave ROLAND as it is just give me a large version of the Longinus Heavy Laser Tongue
Back when I played Templars in 0.65, a Condor, Gemini, and as many Smiter wings as I can fit slaughtered almost everything I fought.
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Schwartz

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #673 on: January 07, 2016, 11:26:32 AM »

I don't know how big your fights are, but if you put missile racks on your ROLAND cruisers they last well throughout most reasonable fights. You get 17 shots = 68 Clarents, that's nearly 2,25 minutes of full speed spam including regen and max missile skills. Only then are you reduced to ,9 shots per minute.

I still see them pulling their weight towards the end of most mid-size encounters, like facing off against 3 Paladins, 4 destroyers and half a dozen frigates. Not to forget that officers can be opportunistic with missile shots, which theoretically increases peak time, and the burst damage is nasty. A good combo. Anyway, that's about the biggest Templar army I'd comfortably touch, considering deploy limits.

Anyway, I don't mean to nag on about the same point - there's already some changes in the pipeline. It's just been my experience that I fear those ROLANDs more than the other guns - and conversely I want them more on my ships than the other guns. They win fights.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2016, 11:34:59 AM by Schwartz »
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Megas

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Re: [0.7.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.5d
« Reply #674 on: January 07, 2016, 11:32:37 AM »

I don't know how big your fights are
One of my benchmarks is if a ship can solo the entire simulator fleet.  If the ship can do that, it gets a big thumbs up.  Not many ships can do that, though most cannot because of lack of peak performance and/or firepower.

With expanded battles, it is possible for several patrols and detachments to merge into a simulator-sized fleet.

Sometimes, I put ships through the simulator meat-grinder.
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