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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] The Knights Templar 0.9.8f  (Read 626894 times)

Canis Lupus

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
« Reply #210 on: December 20, 2014, 02:32:39 AM »

First, the quality of the work is awesome - sfx is mostly great (imo minus missiles and holy charge (the latter reminisces of WoW too much for me)), and the conceptualization of defensive and offensive abilties, as well ship systems are awesome. I like the energy weapons akin to SG's Ancients' the most, oh, those smart projectiles! With that in mind...

I am avoiding using this mod, because battles have been a bit … boring. It is NOT the mod’s fault, but
the way it is balanced, combined with the (at present) lack of player-controlled ship/weapon construction do not lend themselves to the use of anything other than player-controlled Paragon + bomber fleets. Anything else and I have to clear stations out of ships after a few engagements and then have to figure out where to get all the weapons I want to spec my ships. Again, these wouldn’t be issues if I could build my own ships/weapons (basically have my own planet), but at present I only trust the AI with holding a couple of carriers at the bottom of the map (and rarely, with a Paragon).

The bomber wings I use end up being pretty useless after the first bombing run, as they wipe out too easily against super-flak and the Priwen Bursts… so a few minutes into a fight, it’s me slugging it out against a few Paladins, rinse and repeat. And no, I’m not beam-kiting, I prefer slugfest + no flux capacitors + maxed vent + quick (frontal+accelerated), hardened shields (imo slugfest is much more fun than beam-kiting, and brings risks to the engagement). I sometimes use other capitals, like speed-focused Conquests or well-geared Onslaughts, but neither of these do very well. I have to kite too much with the Conquests (again, a bit boring), and I’ve found the onslaughts need good cover on the flanks, which I don’t have because I don’t trust the AI with ships. 

So then I find myself thinking that this mod would have been awesome down the road, once Starsector matured a bit more. For now, and until then? A few suggestions:

Dealing with the unfeasibility of small-ship fleets, and with the overbearing Paragons.
•   Priwen bursts could use a rework. At present they annihilate wings and frigates and do nothing against the Templar’s nemesis, the Paragon. I say a little “thank you” every time a nearby Paladin uses its Priwen, as all it does is build flux and expose itself to a shot from my Plasma Cannons. I like how the Super EMP works on the Arcade ship. If the Priwen works something like that, it would be universally useful, while being more powerful than at present against the Paragon, and would not be such a bane to wing/frigate-based fleets. Bigger ships get longer-range Priwens and ta-da, balance.
•   AI ships don’t know to withdrawal far enough when a Templar ships explodes. I remember one of my Maximus and a couple of Lashers moving back a bit and dropping shields, only to get wiped out in the incoming explosion… I cried for my Maximus and stopped using Lashers.
•   Holy Charge could also use a rework… into what exactly, I don’t know... one of the Paladin’s problems I’ve found is that they can’t withdrawal to vent very well. Once they’ve built up their flux, they rarely get enough time to retreat and vent before they die… which brings me to:
•   Snearing those Kiters. Maybe with a missle. High-durability, high-ammo, ultra-fast, ultra-long range. Some EMP damage, but in effect, very much like an Archbishop’s drones. Something to stop those Paragons from acting like a Wolf.

Making ballistics viable.
•   In my eyes, an Onslaught is in many ways an equal of the Paragon (especially in SS+). That behemoth weapon platform can mount a plethora of ultra-high-tech ballistic weapons that should make any Paragon commander think twice before engaging. Yet, the Onslaught (and the Caesar and Conquest) does much more poorly against the Templars than does the Paragon. Hopefully the changes suggested above can reduce that apparent difference by making Ballistic-based ships relatively more viable. If not, then maybe slightly boost explosive damage to Templars. I want Onslaught-Archbishop slugfests!
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
« Reply #211 on: December 20, 2014, 05:22:42 AM »

First, the quality of the work is awesome - sfx is mostly great (imo minus missiles and holy charge (the latter reminisces of WoW too much for me)), and the conceptualization of defensive and offensive abilties, as well ship systems are awesome. I like the energy weapons akin to SG's Ancients' the most, oh, those smart projectiles! With that in mind...

I am avoiding using this mod, because battles have been a bit … boring. It is NOT the mod’s fault, but
the way it is balanced, combined with the (at present) lack of player-controlled ship/weapon construction do not lend themselves to the use of anything other than player-controlled Paragon + bomber fleets. Anything else and I have to clear stations out of ships after a few engagements and then have to figure out where to get all the weapons I want to spec my ships. Again, these wouldn’t be issues if I could build my own ships/weapons (basically have my own planet), but at present I only trust the AI with holding a couple of carriers at the bottom of the map (and rarely, with a Paragon).

The bomber wings I use end up being pretty useless after the first bombing run, as they wipe out too easily against super-flak and the Priwen Bursts… so a few minutes into a fight, it’s me slugging it out against a few Paladins, rinse and repeat. And no, I’m not beam-kiting, I prefer slugfest + no flux capacitors + maxed vent + quick (frontal+accelerated), hardened shields (imo slugfest is much more fun than beam-kiting, and brings risks to the engagement). I sometimes use other capitals, like speed-focused Conquests or well-geared Onslaughts, but neither of these do very well. I have to kite too much with the Conquests (again, a bit boring), and I’ve found the onslaughts need good cover on the flanks, which I don’t have because I don’t trust the AI with ships. 

So then I find myself thinking that this mod would have been awesome down the road, once Starsector matured a bit more. For now, and until then? A few suggestions:

Dealing with the unfeasibility of small-ship fleets, and with the overbearing Paragons.
•   Priwen bursts could use a rework. At present they annihilate wings and frigates and do nothing against the Templar’s nemesis, the Paragon. I say a little “thank you” every time a nearby Paladin uses its Priwen, as all it does is build flux and expose itself to a shot from my Plasma Cannons. I like how the Super EMP works on the Arcade ship. If the Priwen works something like that, it would be universally useful, while being more powerful than at present against the Paragon, and would not be such a bane to wing/frigate-based fleets. Bigger ships get longer-range Priwens and ta-da, balance.
•   AI ships don’t know to withdrawal far enough when a Templar ships explodes. I remember one of my Maximus and a couple of Lashers moving back a bit and dropping shields, only to get wiped out in the incoming explosion… I cried for my Maximus and stopped using Lashers.
•   Holy Charge could also use a rework… into what exactly, I don’t know... one of the Paladin’s problems I’ve found is that they can’t withdrawal to vent very well. Once they’ve built up their flux, they rarely get enough time to retreat and vent before they die… which brings me to:
•   Snearing those Kiters. Maybe with a missle. High-durability, high-ammo, ultra-fast, ultra-long range. Some EMP damage, but in effect, very much like an Archbishop’s drones. Something to stop those Paragons from acting like a Wolf.

Making ballistics viable.
•   In my eyes, an Onslaught is in many ways an equal of the Paragon (especially in SS+). That behemoth weapon platform can mount a plethora of ultra-high-tech ballistic weapons that should make any Paragon commander think twice before engaging. Yet, the Onslaught (and the Caesar and Conquest) does much more poorly against the Templars than does the Paragon. Hopefully the changes suggested above can reduce that apparent difference by making Ballistic-based ships relatively more viable. If not, then maybe slightly boost explosive damage to Templars. I want Onslaught-Archbishop slugfests!

Aw man, that Clarent bell toll sound is a favorite amongst the other modders...

Templars are generally meant to be fought with mixed fleets; using just bombers will not make for a very interesting experience.  Two very important hull mods are Automated Repair Unit and Resistant Flux Coils, if you want to do well.

Priwen Bursts should not be any longer-range than they already are (seriously, the bigger ones fill almost the entire screen), and most certainly should not be anti-capital weapons.  They're specifically designed to punish surround-and-swarm tactics (Templar ships are rather slow; if you use frigates, make sure you split them up as much as you can.  Similarly, they shouldn't auto-overload stuff.  That's just broken.

I can't do anything about the vanilla AI, but there is a phantom force that pushes ships away from impending core detonations.  I'll probably just make the detonations less deadly.

Paladins are not meant to retreat.  It's in their name.  In any case, they don't use the charge as often as they should, though, so if they use it more often it will shut down lots of kiting tactics and make them more of an in-your-face threat.

Giga-salamanders would indeed solve kiting.  It would also solve moving in general.  If you want your ships to be able to actually use their engines ever, this is perhaps not the best idea.

Low-tech ships have to be prepared to tank EMP damage.  If you've got an onslaught, you must have Automated Repair Unit, Armored Weapons, Resistant Flux Coils, and Insulated Engine Assembly to minimize weapon downtime as much as possible.  Don't worry about dissipating your full firepower; you won't actually have all of your weapons online at the same time.

That said, I have made the following changes:
- Holy Charge AI improved
- Slightly increased high explosive damage to Templar shields
- Priwen Burst EMP damage halved, but now deals hard flux damage in addition to everything else
- Templar reactor explosions deal kinetic damage, deal a third of the damage they used to, and inflict massive hard flux damage to those caught in the blast
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Canis Lupus

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
« Reply #212 on: December 20, 2014, 07:05:45 AM »

Aw man, that Clarent bell toll sound is a favorite amongst the other modders...

:o

Quote
Templars are generally meant to be fought with mixed fleets; using just bombers will not make for a very interesting experience.  Two very important hull mods are Automated Repair Unit and Resistant Flux Coils, if you want to do well.

...
Low-tech ships have to be prepared to tank EMP damage.  If you've got an onslaught, you must have Automated Repair Unit, Armored Weapons, Resistant Flux Coils, and Insulated Engine Assembly to minimize weapon downtime as much as possible.  Don't worry about dissipating your full firepower; you won't actually have all of your weapons online at the same time.

My issues with the Onslaught come from the lack of flank cover due to minimal frigate use (after discovery of immense frigate fragility vs. Priwen + self-destructs, not an issue with the upcoming changes). It's a failure by choice, but I'll look into your suggestions as well as see about adding a couple of frigates to cover my butt.

BTW, Automated Repair Unit costs about 5 supply for an Onslaught.

Quote
Priwen Bursts should not be any longer-range than they already are (seriously, the bigger ones fill almost the entire screen), and most certainly should not be anti-capital weapons. They're specifically designed to punish surround-and-swarm tactics (Templar ships are rather slow; if you use frigates, make sure you split them up as much as you can.  Similarly, they shouldn't auto-overload stuff.  That's just broken.

I can't do anything about the vanilla AI, but there is a phantom force that pushes ships away from impending core detonations.  I'll probably just make the detonations less deadly.

I understand that reasoning and the changes you mentioned bellow should adequately resolve my concerns. Thanks!

Quote
Paladins are not meant to retreat.  It's in their name.  In any case, they don't use the charge as often as they should, though, so if they use it more often it will shut down lots of kiting tactics and make them more of an in-your-face threat.

I figured as much...

The more frequent use of Holy Charge should also help multiple Paladins in slugfests. Presently it's quite easy to burst one down with Plasma cannons and a few Reapers before the others can really partake in the battle. Ideally now I'll see three Paladins, at 12, 4, and 8 o'clock.

Quote
Giga-salamanders would indeed solve kiting.  It would also solve moving in general.  If you want your ships to be able to actually use their engines ever, this is perhaps not the best idea.

Ye, that wasn't the best thought-out idea on my part. Better would have been an Arachne with rooting drones or a fighter wing or EDIT: or reverse gravity missiles or a reverse gravity beam (opposite of the Jupiter) or ... hopefully the Holy Charge changes resolve this for the folks who like to beam-kite.

Quote
That said, I have made the following changes:
- Holy Charge AI improved
- Slightly increased high explosive damage to Templar shields
- Priwen Burst EMP damage halved, but now deals hard flux damage in addition to everything else
- Templar reactor explosions deal kinetic damage, deal a third of the damage they used to, and inflict massive hard flux damage to those caught in the blast

Is the Priwen Burst hard flux damage 90% mitigated by the Paragon's Fortress Shield?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 07:22:30 AM by Canis Lupus »
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
« Reply #213 on: December 20, 2014, 02:23:54 PM »

Is the Priwen Burst hard flux damage 90% mitigated by the Paragon's Fortress Shield?

Shields are bypassed entirely when dealing with hard flux damage.  A 0.4-efficiency fortress shielded paragon takes as much hard flux as buffalo mk 2.
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angrytigerp

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
« Reply #214 on: December 29, 2014, 04:05:05 AM »

Dark, just wanted to extend my appreciation for this faction. It goes really well with SS+ (almost like you designed both mods or something)

My SS+ campaign was missing an endgame, until I went and picked a fight with a mid-size Templar fleet (I had more or less ignored them up to that point). To my surprise, even the frigates were dangerous to my fleet. I don't know what voodoo you worked to get that funky shield lattice working, but it's a brilliant mechanic, and a fantastic change of pace. I'm almost tempted to start my game over and become a Templar myself, just so I can stomp anyone and everyone who looks at me funny.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3f
« Reply #215 on: December 29, 2014, 02:15:44 PM »

I'm glad you like it!

Yeah, endgame challenge was the intention, and they were balanced for SS+.  One of the primary design goals was making every Templar ship relevant at all fleet scales, so those Jesuits needed to be able to hold their own against the big guns, despite their inability to tank heavy fire.  Thus, they get the Schism Drive; they use it as a source of DPS, a way to get around the map, and - most importantly - an escape ability to avoid big bursts of damage.
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Dark.Revenant

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[0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
« Reply #216 on: January 08, 2015, 07:00:05 PM »

Another incremental balance/feature pass.


Download The Knights Templar 0.9.3g
Download Mirror
(Requires LazyLib 2.0b)
(Requires ShaderLib Beta v1.03) (Updated!)
(Supported by Starsector+ 2.4) (Updated!)

We also recommend Version Checker 1.3 to notify you when an update is ready.

Note: This mod uses custom shader effects.  If you suffer performance issues, adjust or disable these effects in Templars/data/config/templarShaders.json


Change Log
Version 0.9.3g
- Lattice Shield Matrix code optimized slightly
- Spiffier shield impacts
- Ascalon counts as a comm relay
- Secace, Galatine, and Arondight flux damage now properly scales with stats
- The Knights Templar do not like when you trade with the Luddic Church
- Luddic Church sometimes sends an enormous fleet to Antioch to cause trouble
- Unrest after a Crusade is normalized; no more 20+ stability penalties!
- Holy Charge AI improved
- Slightly increased high explosive damage to Templar shields
- Priwen Burst EMP damage halved, but now deals hard flux damage in addition to everything else
- Templar reactor explosions deal kinetic damage, deal half the damage they used to, and inflict massive hard flux damage to those caught in the blast
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Sabaton

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
« Reply #217 on: January 09, 2015, 08:11:30 AM »

 I've been plagued by this problem for a while:

 The situation: latest templar mod installed, latest lazylib and shader lib, no modified anything, reinstalled game several times, even made sure I have the last java version.

 The problem: most templar ship variants instantly cause the game to crash after being selected in the missions.
 The culprits are: Paladin: Agilis, Atirier, Estender, Mittere
 Archbishop: Atirier, Defensa, Mittere, Saltare
 Crusader: Agilis, Saltare
 Oddly enough the frigate doesn't have any issues.

 Problem seems to be caused solely by templars.

 The log:
Spoiler
java.lang.NullPointerException
   at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.refit.oOOO.Ö00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.refit.O00O.ø00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.coreui.refit.ManageVariantsDialog.actionPerformed(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.thisnew.super(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.null.processInput(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.ui.O0Oo.o00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.B.void.class$super(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.A.oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.Ò00000(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.combat.O0OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.super(Unknown Source)
   at com.fs.starfarer.StarfarerLauncher$2.run(Unknown Source)
   at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)
[close]

 The question: what dafuq is going on?
 
« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 08:16:20 AM by Sabaton »
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Histidine

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
« Reply #218 on: January 09, 2015, 08:18:52 AM »

I've been plagued by this problem for a while:

 The situation: latest templar mod installed, latest lazylib and shader lib, no modified anything, reinstalled game several times, even made sure I have the last java version.

 The problem: most templar ship variants instantly cause the game to crash after being selected in the missions.
[...]
 The question: what dafuq is going on?
 
Here.
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Sabaton

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
« Reply #219 on: January 09, 2015, 08:30:51 AM »

 Oh, and is there anything I can do or should I just wait for the next patch?
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Silver Silence

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
« Reply #220 on: January 09, 2015, 09:00:06 AM »

I presume it's done in Latin or something equally foreign, but could someone or Dark tell me what the loadouts are? Saltare.. Mittere.. Atirier.. Do they complement each other, so if I was to scavenge enough templar ships to have a small fleet of Defensa ships, could I expect a fleet of defensively oriented Templar ships? Assuming Defensa relates to playing defensively and on the back foot.
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
« Reply #221 on: January 09, 2015, 11:21:24 AM »

I presume it's done in Latin or something equally foreign, but could someone or Dark tell me what the loadouts are? Saltare.. Mittere.. Atirier.. Do they complement each other, so if I was to scavenge enough templar ships to have a small fleet of Defensa ships, could I expect a fleet of defensively oriented Templar ships? Assuming Defensa relates to playing defensively and on the back foot.
Ship loadouts are completely random if you are running SS+
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Silver Silence

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
« Reply #222 on: January 09, 2015, 11:37:47 AM »

Uwotm8? I was asking what the loadouts mean in english. You know how other ships might have Assault/Elite/Support variants? What does Saltare/Mittere/Atirier/Defensa and other such variants mean? The Templar always have a supply of their own munitions and ships so they're never gonna have ships and weapon mounts swapped out for the sake of making do.


Unless you mean one Saltare Paladin is gonna look completely different to another Saltare Paladin even though the same variant is used and thus the same weapons and hullmods are needed and again, Templar don't have to "make do".
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
« Reply #223 on: January 09, 2015, 12:23:48 PM »

Estendre - Standard
Saltare - Assault
Mittere - Missile/Strike
Atirier - Artillery
Defensa - Escort
Agilis - Fast/Skirmish
Eligere - Elite
Mandare - Command
Portare - Support
Fusiller - Close Support
Magister - Ultimate
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Silver Silence

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Re: [0.65.1a] The Knights Templar v0.9.3g
« Reply #224 on: January 11, 2015, 10:08:32 AM »

So I wondered what would happen if you used other ships to create a Templar siege engine. The result is this. 12 Secace Autocannons, 2 Arondight Accelerators, 7 Galatines, 4 Merced Cannons, 4 Sentenias and 12 Longinus Lasers. I'd have Rhon Lasers fitted for PD but then I'd need the PD AI and that's neuter the mass of other small guns aboard this monster. So instead I've used Neutrino Disruptors. For light missile support, Neutrino missile launchers top it off. That said, the disruptors do nothing against Clarent missiles, they track far too well (disruptors work like graviton beams, spinning missiles out of control). And the best part? It spent most of it's time overloaded in the face of an Archbishop and a few Jesuits.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 10:28:50 AM by Silver Silence »
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