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Author Topic: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!  (Read 26230 times)

Sundog

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2014, 02:14:42 PM »

Its symptom is save scumming battles till you win without losing any ships, and a repetitive end game.
Wait. So you want SS to be 'FUN', but you don't use iron mode? Give me an example of a 'Dying is Fun' game that let's you save scum. Unavoidable consequences are a major part of what defines games like FTL and DF.

I don't think your argument about control has much credibility at all. Similarly to TJJ, Uomoz, and Alex, I think SS gives you more control than FTL or DF.

As to solutions....
- Defeat in general needs to be less catastrophically bad
- Trivial battles need to give trivial rewards, to discourage boring farming play.
- Non-trivial battles need to give greater rewards, and access to unique context sensitive traits/unlocks.
I think these are excellent suggestions.

dmaiski

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2014, 03:06:19 PM »

in DF you can save scumming is so easy its not even worth mentioning...

but generaly in DF people don't save scum, its an elective choice being made by the player to play on, even if they conciously know that what happened will inevitably lead to their demise, or make the later game more dificult

as I said earlier there is an "acceptable losses" threshold that players have, if you pass it, you have rage quit or save scum

in DF the "acceptable losses" constitutes evrything, losing in DF is just as fun as winning,
if you lose, you know why you lost, and can figure out how to prevent losing in the same way next time

in SS there are no "acceptable losses", most people dont even like losing fighters and frigates, let alone capital class ships, many will even savescum if there simply minor hull damage in the battle
SS battle is prettymuch a Random Number Game, unless you are piloting the ship yourself, you have no controll over the outcome, and no real idea why you lose (other then "fleet not tanky nuf")
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 03:10:04 PM by dmaiski »
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ahrenjb

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2014, 03:45:53 PM »

While I agree that some mechanics can possibly be changed, adjusted, or added to make losses feel like a more natural part of gameplay, a big part of this does come down to how the player wants to play. The way I see it, it's intended that it isn't going to be a matter of IF you'll suffer losses or crushing defeats, it's just when. The important part in insuring that this doesn't take the fun out of things is the player will still feel like they've made some form of progress.

Some players just refuse to accept loss. There isn't anything you can do about that. If you play smart, this can be minimized. Especially if you have some extra ships mothballed at the storage facility. Maybe there should be a way for players to "hitch a ride" back there rather than the current respawn mechanism. Heck, I suffered a miserable defeat recently after making a navigational error that put me in contact with a large pirate fleet while I was at critically low CR from running out of supplies partway through a journey. I took the hit, limped away in a frigate, and re-kitted.

Experience was still gained, but there needs to be something a little more. A feeling of personal, permanent progress even in the face of defeat. In DF, you might have 3 survivors, low supplies, and a cloud of miasma after a defeat, but you've still got what you built. Pilgrims will comes.

Maybe a mechanic that allows slow recovery of your flagship if destroyed in battle. Your fleets pride is destroyed in an engagement gone wrong, but you've got a few spare creds and can hire an independent force to tow the hulk back home for repairs and refitting. It could appear in your station at 1% hull and 0% CR, with most of the weapons stripped.
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Cycerin

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2014, 04:12:06 PM »

My least favorite part of SS rn are those retreat/pursuit battles that are already pretty much guaranteed to go one way but which you still need to see play out. However I can see them becoming less annoying in the future when they're more meaningful (also, they're interesting when the AI decides to man up and fight, or you exploit the fact the AI sends out less ships than usual to stage a slow comeback)
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Megas

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2014, 04:40:18 PM »

Quote
I'm all for doing away with command points. At the moment, I'm hesitant to bring in allied forces because I feel like there is very little I can do to command them, and as a result, my strategy generally revolves around finding a very good flagship and then murdering smaller fleets with my solo behemoth. This is not my ideal situation, but the combination of catastrophic repair costs and suicidal AI mean that I am not likely to bring in my other ships because I know they're going to cost me far more than they will help in the long run.
Similar situation here.  I find myself piloting the smallest ship that can kill everything single-handedly in every battle, because it happens to be the most cost-effective way to play.  It can get boring because it feels like I have solved the game.  (Oh no! System defense fleet #51 appears in Exerelin!  Quick! Better get super Medusa to solo this fleet yet again.)  Also, if I bring help, all of my CP gets used up to capture Nav and Sensor points, unless I waste valuable skill points on convenience CP instead of skills that let me kill things or fly across the map faster.

Quote
My least favorite part of SS rn are those retreat/pursuit battles that are already pretty much guaranteed to go one way but which you still need to see play out.
Me too.  That is another reason why I have abandoned capitals (who cannot catch fleeing ships) in favor of can-do-everything-ships like a Medusa.  In unmodded games, I often use auto-resolve to get my quick and easy XP.
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Sundog

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2014, 04:55:57 PM »

@dmaiski:
Win DF? SS is a game of chance with no acceptable losses? I feel like we're talking about different games...

I'll admit I've been surprised by the outcome of battles before, but each time it was because I overlooked something or had a poor understanding of the ships involved. If I lose a ship or two it's because I messed up or took a calculated risk, not because arbitrary RNG screwed me over.

as I said earlier there is an "acceptable losses" threshold that players have, if you pass it, you have rage quit or save scum
Perhaps for some people, but, like Ordanen, I find it interesting to take serious losses. I see your (and ahrenjb's) point though. It's hard to accept serrious losses when you can just reload. Maybe there should be some sort of middle-ground for the players torn between save-scumming and perma-death. In-game insurance or something.

in DF you can save scumming is so easy its not even worth mentioning...
In DF you can edit a config file to make frequent backups of your saves. In SS you can edit a config file to start with 10,000 logistics points. I'm not talking about what's possible, or even what's cheating. My point was that 'FUN' games are rarely, if ever, designed with save scumming in mind.

Gothars

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2014, 04:56:23 PM »

I think the term "losing is fun" can be misunderstood all too easily - having lost is actually no fun, it is the struggle against imminent defeat that drives up the heartbeat. The greatest joy is to actually win this struggle and recover from a seemingly game-ending situation. I can't speak about DF, but for FTL the high frequency of these situations is what makes the game fun.

It is true that in Starsector's battles these edge situations are not too frequent. You usually either clearly dominate, or you're crushed.

What I hope for are two things:

- By giving battles context and meaning the definition of losing and winning changes. Maybe successfully escaping with a certain freighter means a win, even if you lost all of your combat ships. Or it is enough to destroy an enemy fleet's fast frigates to make it strategically harmless. These finer definitions of "win" might provide more potential for very close calls, which you can actively work against.


- There's no really relevant layer above fleet combat yet, the fleet is all you have, so you risk all you have, every time. But that will change. You will eventually, potentially have several outposts, mining operations, trade connections etc. I hope that a lost battle of your fleet will become just a strategical setback. Instead of thinking "this defeat throws me back on the way to my only goal of having the biggest fleet", you might think "how can I protect my surviving assets with my remaining forces most efficiently?". In that moment you have a "struggle against defeat" situation that is interesting to play out, losing becomes fun.
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Alex

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2014, 06:40:42 PM »

I think the term "losing is fun" can be misunderstood all too easily - having lost is actually no fun, it is the struggle against imminent defeat that drives up the heartbeat. The greatest joy is to actually win this struggle and recover from a seemingly game-ending situation. I can't speak about DF, but for FTL the high frequency of these situations is what makes the game fun.

I think I basically agree with what you're saying, except for the necessity of being able to recover, or even have hope of recovery. Sometimes the struggle itself is good enough, just to see if you can last that little bit longer.


What I hope for are two things:

- By giving battles context and meaning the definition of losing and winning changes. Maybe successfully escaping with a certain freighter means a win, even if you lost all of your combat ships. Or it is enough to destroy an enemy fleet's fast frigates to make it strategically harmless. These finer definitions of "win" might provide more potential for very close calls, which you can actively work against.


- There's no really relevant layer above fleet combat yet, the fleet is all you have, so you risk all you have, every time. But that will change. You will eventually, potentially have several outposts, mining operations, trade connections etc. I hope that a lost battle of your fleet will become just a strategical setback. Instead of thinking "this defeat throws me back on the way to my only goal of having the biggest fleet", you might think "how can I protect my surviving assets with my remaining forces most efficiently?". In that moment you have a "struggle against defeat" situation that is interesting to play out, losing becomes fun.

What I'm hoping for, as well. Sounds like it should pan out, but does require player-managed outposts to be in the game before it can really take off... although maybe some aspects of this can be brought into being via events. Like, say, if an important freighter escapes and you complete a trade run that makes losing all your other ships worth it, or something along those lines.
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kazi

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2014, 07:51:20 PM »

I think my main issue with losing right now is that there's no real "insurance policy" when you lose. I generally will play till I die, then completely restart from a new game. The "restart" ships are so much worse than the original starters its almost impossible to get back on your feet again.

Also occasionally there are completely BS autoresolves or situations where I die horribly in a complete fluke, which is why I never play Iron Mode these days (I only save-scum when I die for some completely BS reason).

I think that the restart ships should be slightly nicer (depending on how far you got before you died). Maybe like a nice frigate/crap destroyer instead of a shuttle that can't kill anything. tbh though, I expect that the trade update will solve things for me. Having ways to make money besides combat will make the non-combat ships a bit more viable.
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Uomoz

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2014, 01:28:44 AM »

I strongly believe that any form of trading will be impossible to balance (too much cost effective) until the campaign layer AI fleets will start behaving a little bit better. Right now they start chasing you and then stop, then start again etcetc nullifying every possible burn advantage they may have and making the player impossible to catch even with very low speed ships. If they start chasing better, sticking to the target for days IMHO, trade runs could be infinitely more intense and fun. Would also make the runs in hostile territories a hard choice as it should be.
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Gothars

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2014, 03:25:16 AM »

I think I basically agree with what you're saying, except for the necessity of being able to recover, or even have hope of recovery. Sometimes the struggle itself is good enough, just to see if you can last that little bit longer.

Right, the struggle is the central element of entertainment, I'd just meant that the few cases when you actually do win (or at least prolong) it feel the best. Not when you lose clear and fast.


I think it would be worth some thought to enhance the scalability of a player's battle-effort. To give it your very, very best is what struggling actually means, after all. The CR system was in good step in that direction. It gives you a reason not to go into a fight with full force, which makes going in with full force feel special. But that could really be expanded upon.
To throw around some ideas: How about allowing something like an overdrive mode that boosts your ships for one battle but costs extra CR/crew lives/hull points? How about calling in expensive help from nearby mercenaries? Maybe introduce super missile weapons that have to be purchased single piece and then authorized by you. Or you could give more "wiggle space" on the tactical side by allowing very costly special kinds of deployment (like from the enemy's side) or re-deployment.



« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 05:51:09 AM by Gothars »
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dmaiski

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2014, 03:27:41 AM »

@Uomoz

thats a problem with the chase mechanic... curently fleets chase targets, instead they should calculate intercept and head to it
(slightly more expencive, but massively more effective)

my missile AI used this to great effect
Spoiler
Code: java
    //find intercept between a missile and a target  
    //adapted from code by Jens Seiler  
    //http://jaran.de/goodbits/2011/07/17/calculating-an-intercept-course-to-a-target-with-constant-direction-and-velocity-in-a-2-dimensional-plane/  
    //have fun if you want to actually understand what going on  
    //basicaly gets where T will be by the time M gets to it  
    public static Vector2f LeadVector(Vector2f TLoc, Vector2f TVel, Vector2f MLoc, Vector2f MVel)  
    {  
        //get missiles speed  
        float MSpeed = (float)Math.sqrt(MVel.lengthSquared());  
  
        //separate out the vectors  
        float Tx = TLoc.getX();  
        float Ty = TLoc.getY();  
        float Mx = MLoc.getX();  
        float My = MLoc.getY();  
  
        float TVx = TVel.getX();  
        float TVy = TVel.getY();  
        float MVx = MVel.getX();  
        float MVy = MVel.getY();  
  
        //subtract position vectors  
        float x1 = Tx - Mx;  
        float y1 = Ty - My;  
  
        //quadratic fun  
        float h1 = TVx*TVx + TVy*TVy - MSpeed*MSpeed;  
        if (h1==0)  
        {  
            h1= (float) .0001;  
        }  
  
        float minusMHalf = -(x1*TVx + y1*TVy)/h1;  // h2/h1  
  
        float discriminant = minusMHalf * minusMHalf - (x1*x1 + y1*y1)/h1; // (h2/h1)^2-h3/h1 (ie D)  
  
        //can they intersect?  
        if (discriminant < 0)  
        {  
            return TLoc;  
        }  
  
  
        double root = Math.sqrt(discriminant);  
  
        double t1 = minusMHalf + root;  
        double t2 = minusMHalf - root;  
  
        double tMin = Math.min(t1, t2);  
        double tMax = Math.max(t1, t2);  
        //which of the 2 is smaller  
        double time = tMin > 0 ? tMin : tMax;  
  
        //can return -ve time (this is less then useful)  
        if (time < 0)  
        {  
            return TLoc;  
        }  
  
        //calculate vector  
        return new Vector2f((float)(time * TVx), (float)(time * TVy));  
    }
this only calculates the lead point
Tloc +  LeadVector = the actual location
[close]

also removing the "navigation" skill goes a very long way to remidy that problem (nav skill is OP)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 03:43:44 AM by dmaiski »
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Uomoz

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2014, 04:09:51 AM »

Nav is not Op, it's simply not used by vanilla AI yet. UsS captains use that, and its terrifying.
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Tschudy

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2014, 05:19:41 AM »

Nav is not Op, it's simply not used by vanilla AI yet. UsS captains use that, and its terrifying.
I can vouch for this.  Considering its size, the pirate ashbringer fleet is pretty dang fast and has caught me with my pants down more than once.  On another note, is it possible to add/change skills with modding?  The combat tree still kinda sucks except for the expanded missile racks and the ability that reduces weapon OP cost across the board.  That and the current fleet logistics cap kinda sucks.
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Megas

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Re: why is it that in starsector Losing != FUN!
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2014, 05:58:43 AM »

Quote
Nav is not Op, it's simply not used by vanilla AI yet. UsS captains use that, and its terrifying.
That sounds like I would need to make Navigation higher priority that it already is, from must-have to non-frigates to must-have to all ships, and from one I can delay like Fleet Logistics to one I need now like... Navigation 2 for Medusa and Mule in Easy mode.

Quote
The combat tree still kinda sucks except for the expanded missile racks and the ability that reduces weapon OP cost across the board.  That and the current fleet logistics cap kinda sucks.
Combat is all-or-nothing.  Most of the best stuff from Combat comes from game-changing level 10 perks.  The best one is Damage Control 10, for hull regeneration, closely followed by Helmsmanship 10 for 0-flux speed at 25% flux.  Those two together enable immortality for a fast enough ship.  Ships like Medusa can circle-strafe around enemies, dodge stuff rather easily, and when my ship takes a hit, I run away, heal up, and come back for more.  At first, I took Combat/Ordnance Expert 10 just for Optimized Assembly alone, which is very nice, but now that is #3 skill I max.  Having more OP and free one-shot Harpoons/Sabots are nice, but not as important as skills that enable a fleet-of-one.

Oh yes, base 20 Logistics hurts except for a modest frigate swarm.  By late-game, I already need about 20 Logistics worth of freighters and tugs just to loot everything that matters from one battle.  One reason I now use one Medusa or other overpowered destroyer like Dahaki for all of my fighting needs.
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