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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.65a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 257874 times)

Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #165 on: September 29, 2014, 04:50:25 PM »

If you're not going to go back on this, then may I suggest a Mount & Blade style reinforcement (in a later version, obviously), where in any scenario that you attack an enemy fleet within shooting distance of another fleet, the other fleet can join on the side they want as reinforcements (to arrive at a later point in the battle, rather than as initial deployments)?

I really hope the planned mechanic that "might take care of this neatly" but Alex is "not prepared to discuss!" turns out to be something along those lines. :)



Most memorable for me is when made my Odyssey flagship fire its plasma cannons to destroy a couple of my destroyers, just for experience. 

Yeah, I did that too, and destroying your damaged ships had the added benefit that you don't have to pay for their repairs. I really don't think the "XP for losses" mechanic can work without a bunch of new rules (crew morale?), so it's probably for the best that it got scrapped.
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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #166 on: September 29, 2014, 05:21:06 PM »

Quote
  • Reduced amount of cargo space taken by ship weapons, now 2/4/8 (was: 5/10/20)
If we're going this route, it might be worthwhile just to make them take up the same amount of space as their OP.

Eh, no, because then we'd be right back in the 5/10/20 territory :)


From a realism perspective (for whatever good that serves in an environment where Handwavium is perfectly justifiable), I figure this should be based on hull size (hit points) instead.  The larger the ship's actual hull, the more tugs it can accept to boost burn.  The weaker the ship's hull, even in a particularly large ship (e.g., a high-tech glass cannon instead of a low-tech brute), the fewer tugs it can use to augment its speed.

A single tug per ship smacks of arbitrary things done in the name of balance, which may be acceptable in quick-and-dirty RTSes but aren't as readily accepted in games that have a more rigid simulation bent.

I don't know that any specific limit is inherently more "realistic". It's all down to assumptions about a technology so advanced that it might as well be magic.

On a side note, I think basing something like that on hitpoints would be a really bad idea, design wise. You'd be tying together design considerations (combat survivability vs campaign speed) that don't need to go together and may need to change independently. You'd also end up with fun boundary conditions (2000 hull? 1 tug. 2001 hull? 2).


Quote
  • Removed "send out salvage teams" from post-engagement options; choices are now "maintain contact with the enemy" (functions as "harry" did) and "stand down"

Is this because "stand down" is redundant, or is this further nerfing of being able to partially recoup your losses in a battle?  I hope the former, because as much as trade is going to be "fun" subjectively, combat still needs to be a viable means of income to justify the vast amount of development time that went into perfecting it.

It's just a simplification of a mechanic I feel was unnecessarily complex. Incidentally, it makes balancing post-combat salvage quantity easier, since you don't have to make assumptions about what choices the player made.


The rest I'll reserve judgement on until I actually see it, but every other tweak of existing features seems to be right on the money!  (I'm a pessimist at heart so I focus on negative feedback rather than positive feedback, although at least I think it's constructive criticism. =))

Fair enough :) I know I tend to do that myself, sometimes.



If you're not going to go back on this, then may I suggest a Mount & Blade style reinforcement (in a later version, obviously), where in any scenario that you attack an enemy fleet within shooting distance of another fleet, the other fleet can join on the side they want as reinforcements (to arrive at a later point in the battle, rather than as initial deployments)?

I really hope the planned mechanic that "might take care of this neatly" but Alex is "not prepared to discuss!" turns out to be something along those lines. :)

:-X


Most memorable for me is when made my Odyssey flagship fire its plasma cannons to destroy a couple of my destroyers, just for experience. 

Yeah, I did that too, and destroying your damaged ships had the added benefit that you don't have to pay for their repairs. I really don't think the "XP for losses" mechanic can work without a bunch of new rules (crew morale?), so it's probably for the best that it got scrapped.

Yeah, it's just one of those things that sounded good on paper but didn't pan out.
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Steven Shi

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #167 on: September 29, 2014, 10:42:57 PM »

Just curious what the number of the upcoming version?

0.8? 0.7? 0.69a?

I just want an idea how close to Alex's idea of completion this is. Will there be another significant module left now we've basically got combat and trade going?

The reason I'm asking is most of detractors from the recent Gemini 2 is that the world seemed bland, robotic or just uninteresting - especially paired with your bog-standard kill/fetch quest. Since Gemini 2 sounds awfully similar to Starsector's sandbox elements (trade, pirate, bounty etc), what's Alex's plan on avoiding his game from having the same pitfalls?

Would there be a Quest Module to formulate multi-layered missions/quests based on random elements of the current condition to make things more alive?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2014, 10:47:47 PM by SQW »
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ciago92

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #168 on: September 29, 2014, 10:47:17 PM »

*cough* I'd guess .65a, since that's....you know....the title of the thread: ".65a (in development)"
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Steven Shi

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #169 on: September 29, 2014, 10:51:04 PM »

lol, good point. I thought Alex might have just put it there as a placeholder when he started this thread. I can't imagine the entire trade module only warrants a 0.01 increase. =P

Come back HL3, all is forgiven!!!
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Voyager I

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #170 on: September 30, 2014, 12:36:27 AM »

This is tangential but I just want to point out that Honor Harrington was, at best, a sensationally uninspired piece of milwank with some unsettling undertones that the author probably didn't notice because he was too busy faffing himself off about how the military is correct about everything.

I only read Basilisk Station, the first book in the series, based on name recognition for the main character.  I am told it only gets worse from there.
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ciago92

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #171 on: September 30, 2014, 05:57:46 AM »

lol, good point. I thought Alex might have just put it there as a placeholder when he started this thread. I can't imagine the entire trade module only warrants a 0.01 increase. =P

Come back HL3, all is forgiven!!!

No worries, it's a .03 increase :-D WAAAAAAY different ;-)

This is tangential but I just want to point out that Honor Harrington was, at best, a sensationally uninspired piece of milwank with some unsettling undertones that the author probably didn't notice because he was too busy faffing himself off about how the military is correct about everything.

I only read Basilisk Station, the first book in the series, based on name recognition for the main character.  I am told it only gets worse from there.

I must have missed where this tangent started lol
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xenoargh

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #172 on: September 30, 2014, 10:07:49 AM »

Quote
Would there be a Quest Module to formulate multi-layered missions/quests based on random elements of the current condition to make things more alive?
Well, that's kind of the nitty-gritty of the trade system; depending on what the player wants to do, they can:

1.  Trade for a profit, taking advantage of the market opportunities opened up by good / bad events.

2.  Trade in black-market goods, undermining their relationship with a Faction but increasing their profit margins per run.  I really would like to see that mechanically fleshed-out personally; instead of being an automatic debit, have a chance to get caught, pay bribes, have to fight your way free of a starport if you've been doing something really awful, etc.

3.  Do something helpful about the violent activities that may be underpinning market instability, whether that means escort missions <shudder> or intercepting pirates or accepting something like a Letter of Marque (totally want to do that).

4.  Do something harmful to the Faction's traffic, and then take advantage of the disruption to make a killing in side-markets that are also affected whilst also gaining some joy from piracy (or acting under a Letter of Marque, heh).

That's a fair amount of layered, event-driven opportunities to use real agency to interact with the game world; the problem's going to be presenting it in a good fashion, UI-wise, and making it relevant to the flow of play.
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JT

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #173 on: September 30, 2014, 04:43:40 PM »

This is tangential but I just want to point out that Honor Harrington was, at best, a sensationally uninspired piece of milwank with some unsettling undertones that the author probably didn't notice because he was too busy faffing himself off about how the military is correct about everything.

I only read Basilisk Station, the first book in the series, based on name recognition for the main character.  I am told it only gets worse from there.

It's good that we live in societies where everyone is entitled to share their opinions. =)

I'll admit that David Weber has it through his head that flat taxes are pure genius, and his lack of subtlety can sometimes make me cringe (Rob S. Pierre? seriously?), but the beauty of the series is that it's "age of sail... in space!"  It's an incredible enmeshment of genres.  Once you look at it from that perspective, you start to appreciate it as being an interesting "self-consistent" piece, rather than having any external validity.  Which, really, is what being a "story" is all about -- if I wanted to learn true politics, I'd get into politics. ;-)
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Cycerin

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #174 on: October 01, 2014, 10:23:58 AM »

Are you going to adjust Fast Missile Racks now that all pods are buffed? Could get ugly out there with mass LRM spam/mixed pods.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #175 on: October 01, 2014, 02:51:06 PM »

The reason I'm asking is most of detractors from the recent Gemini 2 is that the world seemed bland, robotic or just uninteresting - especially paired with your bog-standard kill/fetch quest. Since Gemini 2 sounds awfully similar to Starsector's sandbox elements (trade, pirate, bounty etc), what's Alex's plan on avoiding his game from having the same pitfalls?

Would there be a Quest Module to formulate multi-layered missions/quests based on random elements of the current condition to make things more alive?

It's a good question, and it's something I'm very much aware of. I don't think the next release will fully resolve it, but it's definitely a step in that direction, and other steps will follow. I don't really want to get into the details, because so much is speculative. Part of the challenge is that the game started with combat, and so it's much more polished and complete than the campaign.

Are you going to adjust Fast Missile Racks now that all pods are buffed? Could get ugly out there with mass LRM spam/mixed pods.

They seem alright so far, so probably not. I mean, eating two sets of Harpoon Pod missiles hurts, but no more than it hurts a frigate to eat 4+ Harpoons. Missiles are just more of a threat across ship sizes now.
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #176 on: October 01, 2014, 04:58:34 PM »

Posted an updated version of the javadoc here. It includes most of the API requests, with a few notable exceptions (SettingsAPI changes, EngineSlotAPI, MuzzleFlashAPI, some other stuff). Doesn't mean it won't get added, I'll most likely take another look at it - was just doing a "quick" pass over it today, and it's in good enough shape where I'd like to publish the new API now.

Standard disclaimer: any part of the API could change prior to the actual release.
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Hopelessnoob

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #177 on: October 01, 2014, 07:07:23 PM »

Don't use the word Update without giving us the real update you monster!
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #178 on: October 01, 2014, 09:18:28 PM »

Posted an updated version of the javadoc here. It includes most of the API requests, with a few notable exceptions (SettingsAPI changes, EngineSlotAPI, MuzzleFlashAPI, some other stuff). Doesn't mean it won't get added, I'll most likely take another look at it - was just doing a "quick" pass over it today, and it's in good enough shape where I'd like to publish the new API now.

Standard disclaimer: any part of the API could change prior to the actual release.

I couldn't help but wonder what the heck ShipVariantAPI.get/setQuality is for.

Nice changes, by the way.
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Tartiflette

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Re: Starsector 0.65a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #179 on: October 01, 2014, 09:21:34 PM »

Don't use the word Update without giving us the real update you monster!
For modders it's the next best thing! Thanks a lot Alex, lot's of good things have appeared (and we are already dissecting the update potential)  ::)
I'm now very curious to see how the new everyFrameWeaponEffects will be used on vanilla ships ;)
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