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[Kommodore Krieg]

Before frigates had a limit there wasn't much of a reason to use anything else.  Frigates are very very good, and this limit is necessary to keep them balanced I think. 

[ValkyriaL]

It is needed to keep them balanced, you can get like 5 frigates for the DP cost of 1 onslaught and still have money left, and they will get the same job done if outfitted right.

[icepick37]

Before frigates had a limit there wasn't much of a reason to use anything else.  Frigates are very very good, and this limit is necessary to keep them balanced I think. 

It is needed to keep them balanced, you can get like 5 frigates for the DP cost of 1 onslaught and still have money left, and they will get the same job done if outfitted right.

Yup.

Even still I use frigates mostly, haha.

[Dark.Revenant]

What do you think of a 3 OP hull mod (Engine Power Limiter) that removes the timer but reduces speed/accel by 30% and turn/turnaccel by 20%?  Or should the OP cost be higher, or the speed reduction be more severe?

I'm thinking of putting it in a new Leadership skill (Small Unit Tactics) that includes a +10%/level peak deployment timer bonus.

[Wapno]

Before frigates had a limit there wasn't much of a reason to use anything else.  Frigates are very very good, and this limit is necessary to keep them balanced I think. 

I seldom had any reason to use anything smaller than a destroyer. I'm not sure if I was doing something wrong, or not, but in my control, frigates in my fleet were usually being ripped apart by wandering too far into firing range of a cruiser/battlecruiser, or being flanked by something. Heck, it still happens now. It's not uncommon for those few frigates I'm using to leave the battle badly beaten up. Bigger ships are usually a better investment for this reason - if AI drives them into trouble, they got a chance to make it out alive, AND they don't have a timer. Now there's even less reason for me to use frigates. The only one being that some of them got special abilities.

I agree with Kazi - I LOVED the pre-CR-update StarSector, where I could fly a ship without caring about a stupid timer. Now it really makes flying a frigate annoying. Even deploying one. The fact that I have to pay attention to decreasing CR values of my ships, instead the fight is just irritating.

If anything, I do feel as if the frigates have been nerfed a bit too much.  Maybe combat readiness can be reduced to half of what it was when the frigate was deployed (for example, you start a battle with 80% CR, you can only be reduced to 40% CR, no matter how long the battle).  What does everyone think about that?

I like that idea. I mean, the whole timer idea is just obnoxious, but this variant at least makes it tolerable.

[CrashToDesktop]

I still find Frigates a pretty useful, since they tote a rather large amount of firepower for a low cost in just about everything (aside from in-combat, the obvious CR thing).  Two small missiles and up to 5 ballistic mounts (or even in the case of the Brawler, two Medium ballistics and 2 small universals) is nothing to scoff at.  In the hands of the AI, Frigates are REALLY powerful, especially the more maneuverable ones (and, of course, in the hands of an uber-good player - I might be good, but I never reach the point of having twitch reflexes) as good as some of those out there).  I usually send my Frigates out in packs of 2-3, they will turn destroyers, and sometimes a cruiser if they catch them in a nebula, into mush almost 100% of the time without taking as much as a scratch to the hull.

[Debido]

I decided to have another round of frigate flagships (of a single class) vs. Hegemony defense fleet.  Long story short, I could destroy the defense fleet with one of the following:  2 Hyperions, 2 Brawlers, 3 Tempests, 3 Wolves, 3 Afflictors, or 4 Lashers.

Update:  Managed to solo fleet with 2 Tempests or 2 Afflictors.  Hardened Subsystems really help.

I'd really like to see a video of that!

[Megas]

Sorry, Debido, I do not have the means to do that now.  I may post more comments about frigates vs. defense fleet in a new thread, later.

[Mattk50]

It is needed to keep them balanced, you can get like 5 frigates for the DP cost of 1 onslaught and still have money left, and they will get the same job done if outfitted right.

thats an unrelated balance problem... you do see this right.

[Toxcity]

I really don't have a problem with the timer. By the time it goes off on most of my frigates the battle is usually over/ there's just stragglers left.

[Vind]

Better mechanic would be not able to attack with frigate vs much bigger fleet. Seriously if player ships crew not some suicide seeking people they will not go into the fight with armada of ships in 1 single frigate.

[icepick37]

Makes sense? Perhaps.

A game mechanic I want to see?  Nope!

[Megas]

Currently, if the player's twitch fighting skills are up to snuff, and has character skills to back his frigates up, a few frigates piloted by the player can solo anything, except maybe a fleet with a Paragon.  One double blaster Tempest with Hardened Subsystems and 100% CR can take out a pirate plunder fleet within the time limit, and can take out all but two Onslaughts from a defense fleet before CR drops to malfunction level.

[xenoargh]

So... hrmm. 

It really sounds like it doesn't actually fix the balance problems with Frigates, whilst penalizing the AI (since their Frigates have this problem also) and making it harsher for newbies.  I'm sure that wasn't intended, but I'm not sure that that the mechanic works if that's how it actually plays out.

I think I have to stand by my previous statement; the problem with endless kiting is that the AI sometimes couldn't be caught but never gave up even though it didn't ever wanted to engage, and players could do the same thing.  The degrading-CR rule was supposed to put a stop to that; it works on the AI, but for players, it's a bigger issue, since the penalties are disparately impacting both the weakest and newest players, once again raising issues with the difficulty ramp.

Wouldn't it just be plain better to simply make the Admiral AI Retreat Frigates if it decided that the situation wouldn't result in a win (say, a lone Frigate vs. an intact Cruiser), and call it a day?

[Megas]

The greatest problem why frigates of Combat/Technology specialists can solo fleets is most if not all pirate and Hegemony ships have regular crew, which means they do not lead their shots very well.  I can circle-strafe the rear of cruisers and Onslaughts, much like it is done in early FPS games like Doom.  Onslaughts fire at my ship, but they usually miss as I just glide to the side and rake them with heavy blaster spam.  If Hegemony had some ships with elite crew plus some levels of Gunnery Implants, such that it can lead shots effectively, it could make twitch-fighting much harder.

If the player is not good at twitch-fighting, low-tech or midline ships are better since they can mount needlers and maulers then snipe and kite.  High-tech ships (except Omen) are great at burst damage and mobility, and if they can dodge incoming shots, they can smash ships quickly.  Heavy blaster is great - it is a medium weapon with the power of a large weapon.  Its only weaknesses are short range and high flux costs, but if the player can mitigate those, his high-tech ships will be DPS monsters.

Xenoargh, the first time I tried a double blaster Tempest against a defense fleet, I disabled several ships and severely damaged an Onslaught so quickly that it admitted defeat.  I harried the rest of the fleet, then they decided to turn around to fight another round.  I have not been able to reproduce this anomaly.  I probably could have soloed the entire encounter with one Tempest.