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Author Topic: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues  (Read 9095 times)

Vandermeer

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Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« on: February 02, 2014, 03:08:16 PM »

Hello,
I've recently tried to customize one of the ships in a mod I played to be more to my likings, but cannot figure out how to get the changes take place in the game, besides trying quite a lot of things (which I will list below). I run a game with the Exerelin mod and also Hiigaran Descendants ships, as well as Interstellar Federation. The ship I tried to modify is the Titan Class of the Interstellar Federation. I custom modded my whole installation quite alot, e.g. only having 1/4th of the standard supply costs while maintaining the standard logistic (total shipcount) boundaries, which had me adjust ship data too. Yet, all these ship modifications only ever took place in the ship_data.csv of the game or the mods, which have been easy to modify in Excel (and there I already changed the design name to "Ocean" - less pompous).
This time I am just dissatisfied with the turret loadout of the design, as it is by default highly assymetric with for example 3 large turrets facing right and only 2 facing left, but then 5 little turrets on the left too that aren't on the right. Assymetry works for agile ships, but this one is probably the slowest, definitly the least maneuverable of them all in the whole fleet list, and also I am kind of OCD order fanatic about symmetry. ;)

- So I looked into the ifed_[class name].ship files with notepad++ and after some time found how to adjust turret count, position, arc and orientation there. The problem is though that those changes don't take effect in the game for some reason, not in loaded save (where I figured an older image of the mods' core data might be loaded), but also the changes don't show up in class previews of the game menu codex.
- Then I found the variants that give every raw hull in the game an actual armed model to work with. So I thought maybe the game automatically backrolls a design plan If it finds it incompatible with the raw hull design - small chance, but had to be tested. So I changed that in Notepad++ as well to fit the new turret setup, but it failed to result in game change too.
- Next idea was that maybe the Exerelin mod, which requires compatibility adjustments for each ship mod to be implemented, had a straight copy of the original data somewhere which would override all my customization. Sadly, the only notes that directed to Interstellar Federation were only little things like a list of the allowed ships, folder direction notes, AI and naming conventions etc., so that is out too.
- Then I figured that maybe the Notepad++ edit, though usually extremly robust, wasn't safe enough here and would cause the program to fall back on save data when a file was corrupted. So I learned to use the shipedit program that flies around the forum here, but even though I could replicate my custom layout in the editor (and also the corresponding variant), the saves from this program didn't make the situation any better.
- Following intuition, I now completly deleted the *.ship and *.variant entries of the orginal, and yes, even after that the original data was still up and working, as I could see the ship in the codex and savegame. That all sounds as if the Starsector keeps around its own copy of the mod hard data somewhere, because how else would it know of the original data if it was overwritten or deleted, right? There are two options for this, either a hard copy in some folder (maybe in completly different and bundled data format too), or it could be integrated in a savegame, where maybe the game automatically restores stack data from the last active save or something.
The last one I could exclude, as even when I replace the save the codex still stays complete. The first one I will never be able to fully disprove, because who knows where and how data might be stored or encoded here. :( I however did not find anything in the usual computer archive, not in appdata, and also not in the game folder itself (searching for "titan" and anything "ship", but here it might disguise itself).

So that is where I finally gave up and seeked forum aid. How can I get this done? Is it really some encoded data image? If, then can I edit it, or if not, do I have to un- and reinstall it all just to make this little adjustment?(but how could modders ever deal with that...) Or am I on a completly wrong track? I could imagine there is another controlling file that keeps check of how many turrets and where individually for each ship, just like the *.csv files before, but besides turning every stone in the mod folder, I could not locate such an archive.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2014, 03:13:30 PM by Vandermeer »
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c plus one

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2014, 03:53:17 PM »

Hello, Vandermeer (nice avatar!)

If you want to move turrets around, add/delete them, change their firing arc angles, and etc., you really need to download this and get to know how it works. there's tons (maybe even kilotons) of help listed in that thread. An indispensable tool for modding.....enjoy!
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Vandermeer

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2014, 05:24:14 PM »

Hello, Vandermeer (nice avatar!)
Yupyup, thank you. Colors: good, expression: piercing eternity.

Quote
If you want to move turrets around, add/delete them, change their firing arc angles, and etc., you really need to download this and get to know how it works. there's tons (maybe even kilotons) of help listed in that thread. An indispensable tool for modding.....enjoy!
That is the program I used. I will read through the thread now, but I can savely say that the firing angles and changing turret count does not do anything in this matter. Firstly because I did that already (in both, a Notepad and this program), and secondly it cannot logically work because, as written above, not even deleting the original data entries causes Starsector to recognize a change. This is why I assume there is some data duplication somewhere.
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Debido

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2014, 06:07:38 PM »

I think I have a problem with that program not saving, when it is not running as as a Local Administrator. See if that helps.
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Vandermeer

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2014, 06:48:51 PM »

Nono, that isn't it. I can open the changed files in notepad++ and see all the changes have been made. And again, by logic, this doesn't even matter, as the game loads the older ship even when I completly deleted that ship file. ...Therefore it cannot have to do with either the shipedit tool, nor my custom notepad adjustments being insufficient. There is some secret to editing already loaded mods which I don't understand yet.

I have worked through the thread of the editing tool above now and didn't find a single mentioning of my case. Anybody is talking about editing the ship files like it was no problem, but really shouldn't the actual modders stumble constantly about this issue? Say you want to test one of your ships in action, but then you notice one of the turrets is off a bit, so you would have to go into the file again and tweak the position a bit.... ..but this won't work, because the game puts outdated ship data into a dusty adamantium sheeted bunker cellar. Well, it can work if I only knew the trick that nobody is talking about. :-X

To make perfectly clear what the exact problem is some images. This is an excerpt of my current "ifed_titan.ship" file opened in the notepad:

The original didn't have any other turrets than ballistic and missile ones, so I changed one to universal which makes it clear that the file has been modified.
It also loads as this in the ship editor, as you can see here:


Now, when I load up the game it comes out like this in the codex still:

..Which is the original data output - 2 Medium Missiles, 3 Large Ballistic, 5 Medium and 10 Small, yet no mention of the above universal turret. The name and description has changed, which you can edit elsewhere, but everything that should have taken place in the .ship file is getting ignored. :( (Again, not even deleting the file does do anything here. The game still loads up the original data as if nothing happened, and I can even load my save just fine with, sadly, the original assymetric ship in it.)
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FlashFrozen

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2014, 12:31:24 AM »

I think you are just modifying the wrong file?

As your trying to make your own version of the titan (ocean) but your only editing the titan's file, would that universal turret show up if you checked the codex of the Original titan?
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Vandermeer

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2014, 05:05:36 AM »

The picture shows the codex entry of the original Titan. No, I only edited the original base file, no copies. The reason why it is called Ocean here is because, as I wrote above, I already edited the description and ship_data.csv to rename it.
Just for records, having done this doesn't interfere with anything, as I tried turret changes on the Titan even before I modified its name and description, and still it wouldn't show up.
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Gothars

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2014, 05:49:31 AM »

not even deleting the file does do anything here. The game still loads up the original data as if nothing happened

I think there's not really an alternative to you unwittingly manipulating a copy. Starsector doesn't save mod files internally, they are always freshly loaded. Of course you have to restart the game after a change, though.
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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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Vandermeer

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2014, 06:40:59 AM »

Of course you have to restart the game after a change, though.
Pff, I have invested far too many hours in this already to fail on the "have you tried turning it off and on again"-issue. Seriously. ::)

Quote
I think there's not really an alternative to you unwittingly manipulating a copy. Starsector doesn't save mod files internally, they are always freshly loaded.
Well, let me provide the evidence to the contrary (if I am not mistaken) via pictures to the folder structure. The game directory:
Spoiler
[close]
Going into mods:
Spoiler
[close]
Going into interstellar federation, where the ship comes from:
Spoiler
[close]
Then into its data directory:
Spoiler
[close]
And finally into hulls:
Spoiler
[close]

As you can see there is only one titan file, and yes, it is the right one. When I open the ship_data.csv (or any other file that mentiones ship names), it appears linked directly to that as this:
Spoiler
[close]

Now, when I open said file in notepad++ it looks like this:
Spoiler
[close]

So nothing is wrong there.

And just to clear this again: I actually searched for anything "starsector", as well as "ship" and "titan" through my whole computer, and could not locate any other relevant files that were stored different places.(which encases that I could not have modified the 'wrong' file too) So either there is some encoded copy under completly different name somewhere, well, or magic. How could it know the original data after it has been changed or deleted otherwise, right? As you can see above, I only modified the one and only original (that I know of), well, and the .variant of the hull, which is just in another folder of the mod.(I think I don't have to prove this too, it's the same)

I notice however that every id link I saw mentiones the ship original data as "ifed_titan" instead of "ifed_titan.ship". I searched for deeper rooting "ifed_titan" long ago, and could not find such a thing, so I assume this is just programming lingo here with the attributes being neatly organized, but maybe there is something to know.
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Okim

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2014, 06:45:45 AM »

Just a wild guess, but you`ve probably got another copy of that ship in the other mods you have. Try switching off everything else except for that particular mod with the Titan.

Vandermeer

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2014, 07:36:39 AM »

Arghh, thanks for the good will, but that was point 3 in "the things I tried" from my first post. Also the system wide search after "titan", "ship" etc. should have revealed such obvious copies to me, but there are none. None!
I even digged into every kind of config files from the exelerin mod that has ship mod creators adjust their files for compatibility, but as said in the first post, all the references have nothing to do with real ship data. There is just organizational stuff.
I only run 3 mods + LazyLib anyway (the third being Hiigaran Descendants ship mod), so there really are not much places for hiding to begin with.


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Gothars

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2014, 07:52:30 AM »


Pff, I have invested far too many hours in this already to fail on the "have you tried turning it off and on again"-issue. Seriously. ::)

No offense intended, just trying to help here.



I tried it at my end, could not find any problems. Modifications of the .ship file show up in the game, after deleting the file the game crashes while loading.

Some other ideas:

- Do you maybe have Sector installed twice and you are modifying one version and running another? For example in fractalsoftworks/starsector/.

- Maybe Exerelin does something with the files? Try loading the game without it.


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Vandermeer

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2014, 08:07:13 AM »

Ok, I just suprisingly solved the matter, though I am not sure why exactly. I let the game load with all mods selected but removed most of the data inside the mod like weapons, hull and variants (/stored them on desktop). After loading the game I instantly closed it again, gave the mod its files back, loaded again, and now the change shows up. ??? I had the idea for this desperate maneuver, because another search in C: revealed that there are interlinks from the appdata/roaming/{etc.} location in C to my actual game location on D, so I figured that maybe some hidden image of the last game state is stored in Java 64 somehow. Cannot be sure if it really was that, since by that logic it should've already been fine after I just deleted the titan hull instead of them all, but oh wonder, it worked.
I am still kind of displeased though. I like to understand problems so that I can tackle them faster another time and place, but I cannot say that I have understood the trouble here, and it just worked by mere luck. Seems awfully impractical for modders too, if it really was about Java storage that is.

Quote
I tried it at my end, could not find any problems. Modifications of the .ship file show up in the game, after deleting the file the game crashes while loading.
Thank you for trying, I envy you for having it so easy. Why must my game be cursed, why?? :-[
Quote
- Do you maybe have Sector installed twice and you are modifying one version and running another? For example in fractalsoftworks/starsector/.

- Maybe Exerelin does something with the files? Try loading the game without it.
The last one I could not try but could still be, yet the first one wasn't it. Only have it once.


Well, thank you all for the mental pingpong though, I am off to finally ferry with my dream ship. :D (but I will look again to see if someone knows what the actual problem could have been)
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Alex

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2014, 11:24:08 AM »

Glad you got it worked out. Well, sort of :)

not even deleting the file does do anything here. The game still loads up the original data as if nothing happened

I think there's not really an alternative to you unwittingly manipulating a copy. Starsector doesn't save mod files internally, they are always freshly loaded. Of course you have to restart the game after a change, though.

It pretty much has to be this. Also, there's nothing that the game or Java do that would cause this kind of data duplication.

It does sound like you've tried a lot of things to rule out anything obvious (and not so obvious), and I'm at a loss to explain exactly what was happening, but, again, the above is the only possibly explanation.
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Kiloman

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Re: Custom Ship Turret Layout issues
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2014, 11:30:40 PM »

This kind of sounds like a Windows AppCompat issue, it will shim files into all kinds of weird places if programs try to write data into the Program Files folder. Have you tried changing the mods folder location in the vmparams file and installing things there? I keep mine in a Drop box folder along with my saves to sync them across multiple machines and it works great.
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