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Author Topic: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs  (Read 6188 times)

miljan

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Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« on: October 21, 2013, 12:51:40 PM »

So, after the new version, I am playing only with fighters and carriers (not counting the beginning when i need to get some money with my frigate).I invested mostly in skill that will benefit mt fighters, like armor, HP and heavy in logistic and speed of my fleet.

-FIGHTER FEEDBACK:


Mid range game and fights are ok, mostly easy. Everything that is not a capital or few cruisers close to each other i can deal with. Also as I am using fighters, i can catch any fleet that tries to escape, with little problems.

The big problems start if the fleet has any capital ship (not counting the carrier and atlas).It is impossible to even get near capitals as most of time my fighters die like flies. But even the ones that get there, can not do anything. (sometimes i can make his shield go down, but thats almost it)
The problem is also a bad AI of my torpedo bombers. Generally they will fly to the target and use the torpedoes no matter does the target have the shields up or not, they will use it the moment they are in range, and sometimes they will even use torpedoes on some other near ship, not the target one (this is very problematic).

Also fighters need to get more balance pass. First they cost to much points to deploy, i mean one cruiser cost 15 points, while torpedo bombers cost 8 points and other cost 6 or 5. Lower the deployment cost maybe (maybe some fighter specific skill that will lower the deployment), or make some synergies like in this suggestion i made in this thread:
http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=7202.0


The AI also seems to get confused sometimes if its fighting phaze cloak ships. I expected they will destroy them very easy as they are fast and can catch them and pursuit them with no problems, but  sometimes a ship phazes out they somehow stop following it, get little confused , so without direct control it is little hard to destroy them, especially if its doom class ship with support of few more phaze cloak ships.

-COMMAND POINT FEEDBACK:
I need constant to control my group and am more playing a rts game because of not that good fighter AI. Regrouping my forces and giving new targets i just lose CP a lot, even after investing in the character skill.

So my question is, why  limit CP at all?  I dont understand that aspect of game. Do not remove the rts aspect for people that want to play it that way. I mean it's really strange that after i use all my CP, i can not do any type of commands anymore, and it is a must for this type of play, especially as fighters will not do the things how I want them to do it

My suggestion is that CP should regenerate slowly over time (or remove the limit totally as it doesn't make that much sense in the first place). Getting those satellite points of interest (or how they are called, the bonuses on the map) on battle map should increase the speed of regeneration, or put regeneration of CP for the highest tier skills (but than it will make it problematic to play the game until you get that high level skill) so people that want to play that way play it.

-POSSIBLE BUGS:


So I am not sure this are bugs because still not sure how CR work, but this is what is happening.

-Generally i noticed a lot that sometimes i get a message you have no capable crafts anymore, and sometimes i get it very early during the battle.
The thing is if i get that message, does it mean that i lost all my fighters, and all the reserve chassis (or only fighter wing as a whole, but i will still get new ones if i have chassis)? Because after i win the battle, and go to fleet option, my fighter wings still have high CR, should they not be not combat ready as they lost all the reserves?
(edit: I always have carriers with me on the battlefield in every fight)

-This leads me to my second possible bug.
I am using Astral, and i noticed my two trident wings (so its totally 4 bombers) going back to my ship for resupply of torpedoes, two wings got in, only one got out , and i got the message that I have no capable crafts anymore. Does resupplying for new torpedos automatically remove CR so in the end the bombers can not be used anymore?  
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 02:19:31 PM by miljan »
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ciago92

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2013, 01:05:01 PM »

I can't speak to most of this, though I do agree with fighter skills being added but....

-Generally i noticed a lot that sometimes i get a message you have no capable crafts anymore, and sometimes i get it very early during the battle.
The thing is if i get that message, does it mean that i lost all my fighters, and all the reserve chassis (or only fighter wing as a whole, but i will still get new ones if i have chassis)? Because after i win the battle, and go to fleet option, my fighter wings still have high CR, should they not be not combat ready as they lost all the reserves?

my guess here is that you didn't deploy any carriers. This means that the fighter replacement chassis are all still available in your carrier they just aren't being deployed and as such your fighter wing is out of this battle (no craft left flying, no carrier to replace craft) but still has high CR (only lost two/three fighters, rest are still available)
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miljan

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2013, 01:09:00 PM »

I can't speak to most of this, though I do agree with fighter skills being added but....

-Generally i noticed a lot that sometimes i get a message you have no capable crafts anymore, and sometimes i get it very early during the battle.
The thing is if i get that message, does it mean that i lost all my fighters, and all the reserve chassis (or only fighter wing as a whole, but i will still get new ones if i have chassis)? Because after i win the battle, and go to fleet option, my fighter wings still have high CR, should they not be not combat ready as they lost all the reserves?

my guess here is that you didn't deploy any carriers. This means that the fighter replacement chassis are all still available in your carrier they just aren't being deployed and as such your fighter wing is out of this battle (no craft left flying, no carrier to replace craft) but still has high CR (only lost two/three fighters, rest are still available)
I always have min 1 carrier with me, or that one with 3 flight deck in later game. Also fighters are with full CR so they have a lot of reserves.
So its maybe a bug?
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Giangiotto

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2013, 01:15:08 PM »

Top tier capital ships are really not supposed to be threatened by bombers alone unless there's a large amount of them.

With that said high tech ships tend to be a bit too good at taking them out. Many medium energy weapons have the accuracy and range to render targeted small craft useless during the first pass.
Salvos from area saturation main guns tend to do this since strike crafts tend to clump together.

I think what strike crafts need is two things:
1-Better AI
They should try to stay out of the kill zones from enemy weapons that can track them easily, avoid wasting ordnance if the target ship's PD is not being occupied by other attackers or it has very low flux, regroup when repairing or replenishing their numbers from carriers and just generally coordinate better their attacks

2-High end options
As it is many factions lack high tier strike crafts, those that do usually limit their numbers to the point they aren't that much more useful

Personally I think that:
-Strike craft weapons should be significantly weaker (with some exceptions like torpedoes) but have bonuses against engines
-Strike crafts should carry more of said weaker weapons (eg. A fighter could have two machineguns, a cannon and a rack of unguided rockets, Bombers could have self defense turrets)
-Strike teams should be larger (12 max crafts for example)

Being able to choose load outs for strike crafts would be insanely cool as well from a screen similar to the refitting one though I doubt that's going to happen.
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ciago92

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2013, 01:34:33 PM »

Do you actually deploy your carriers or just have them in your fleet? If you're fighter heavy enough, a one deck carrier might not be able to keep up if your fighters are getting destroyed too quickly. If it's building one fighter wing and other wing is finished off the second wing will give you the no capable craft because the carrier is building the first one. Same situation, then the fighters are still available after the battle but not for this battle. I would be impressed if you managed to accomplish this with an Astral (3 deck) unless you've got like ten fighter wings attacking a PD-heavy ship or something though
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Gothars

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2013, 01:35:06 PM »

-Generally i noticed a lot that sometimes i get a message you have no capable crafts anymore, and sometimes i get it very early during the battle.
The thing is if i get that message, does it mean that i lost all my fighters, and all the reserve chassis (or only fighter wing as a whole, but i will still get new ones if i have chassis)? Because after i win the battle, and go to fleet option, my fighter wings still have high CR, should they not be not combat ready as they lost all the reserves?

If the last currently active fighter of a wing has been destroyed, the activation of replacements is halted. Note that fighters which are currently still being prepared on a flight deck also count as active. That means, as long as your fleet has an unoccupied flight deck deployed, this can’t happen to a wing. If your fleet has many more fighters than flight decks though, it happens quite easily.

-This leads me to my second possible bug.
I am using Astral, and i noticed my two trident wings (so its totally 4 bombers) going back to my ship for resupply of torpedoes, two wings got in, only one got out , and i got the message that I have no capable crafts anymore. Does resupplying for new torpedos automatically remove CR so in the end the bombers can not be used anymore?  

That would be a bug, AFAIK rearming does not cost any CR. Are you sure that the bombers of both wings made it back to the carrier?
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miljan

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2013, 02:10:03 PM »

-Generally i noticed a lot that sometimes i get a message you have no capable crafts anymore, and sometimes i get it very early during the battle.
The thing is if i get that message, does it mean that i lost all my fighters, and all the reserve chassis (or only fighter wing as a whole, but i will still get new ones if i have chassis)? Because after i win the battle, and go to fleet option, my fighter wings still have high CR, should they not be not combat ready as they lost all the reserves?

If the last currently active fighter of a wing has been destroyed, the activation of replacements is halted. Note that fighters which are currently still being prepared on a flight deck also count as active. That means, as long as your fleet has an unoccupied flight deck deployed, this can’t happen to a wing. If your fleet has many more fighters than flight decks though, it happens quite easily. I always have min 3 carrier with me, or that one with 3 flight deck. Also fighters are with full CR so they have a lot of reserves

So if i understand you good lets say this.

I have one normal carrier with one flight deck. I have two fighter wings A and B. If  wing A is destroyed (all fighters in the wing),it will be resupplied with new fighters, but if at the same time the B wing is destroyed , they will not get any more fighters, even after my carrier completed the rebuilding of the A wing? Or after they finished building A wing they will move to rebuild B wing also?

-This leads me to my second possible bug.
I am using Astral, and i noticed my two trident wings (so its totally 4 bombers) going back to my ship for resupply of torpedoes, two wings got in, only one got out , and i got the message that I have no capable crafts anymore. Does resupplying for new torpedos automatically remove CR so in the end the bombers can not be used anymore?  

That would be a bug, AFAIK rearming does not cost any CR. Are you sure that the bombers of both wings made it back to the carrier?

Yes.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 02:22:39 PM by miljan »
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ciago92

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2013, 02:26:11 PM »

Correct, if A is destroyed and being rebuilt, B can be completely removed from the battle and will not be built once A is at full strength.
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Gothars

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2013, 02:31:38 PM »

I have one normal carrier with one flight deck. I have two fighter wings A and B. If  wing A is destroyed (all fighters in the wing),it will be resupplied with new fighters, but if at the same time the B wing is destroyed , they will not get any more fighters, even after my carrier completed the rebuilding of the A wing? Or after they finished building A wing they will move to rebuild B wing also?

Correct!

Quote
That would be a bug, AFAIK rearming does not cost any CR. Are you sure that the bombers of both wings made it back to the carrier?
Yes.

It would be good to report that then, can you think of an easy way to reproduce it? When I try it in the simulator it works fine. Scratch that, there's definitely something strange going on.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 02:37:19 PM by Gothars »
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miljan

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2013, 02:40:12 PM »

Quote
That would be a bug, AFAIK rearming does not cost any CR. Are you sure that the bombers of both wings made it back to the carrier?
Yes.

It would be good to report that then, can you think of an easy way to reproduce it? When I try it in the simulator it works fine.

Dont know how. Maybe if two wings (well 3 bombers) enter  the carrier at the same time?
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Gothars

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2013, 02:49:50 PM »

Just reported it in the bug sub-forum, it's easy to reproduce. Thanks for reporting it by the way.
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phyrex

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2013, 02:53:43 PM »


-COMMAND POINT FEEDBACK:
Do not remove the rts aspect for people that want to play it that way.

alex said in the past its not supposed to be played like an RTS, the command system is meant to give orders to the fleet as general tactics whom the hierarchy below you will figure how to do at there convenience. (like in real-life, higher-ups give orders and its up to lower ranked officers to manage how to do it).

Its actually a very important thing because it will act together with the officer system later on when thats implemented where a ship captain's personality will affect how he deals with given assignment
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miljan

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2013, 03:08:34 PM »


-COMMAND POINT FEEDBACK:
Do not remove the rts aspect for people that want to play it that way.

alex said in the past its not supposed to be played like an RTS, the command system is meant to give orders to the fleet as general tactics whom the hierarchy below you will figure how to do at there convenience. (like in real-life, higher-ups give orders and its up to lower ranked officers to manage how to do it).

Its actually a very important thing because it will act together with the officer system later on when thats implemented where a ship captain's personality will affect how he deals with given assignment
The problem is, the AI is not very good. I would not have need to control it myself if the AI did  good job, but it is not the case, and i think it will never be the case as making a good AI is extremely hard. Also, limiting CP actually force you to use the AI, not because they are good, but because you dont have any other option.
If i want to use officers i will use them because they do the job done, but please don't force me to use them, especially if they are bad. I mean, the game has character development, there can be skills that if you want you can level so you have more direct control.

Anyway, in reality you are not limited how many orders you can give, especially in modern age, so i think it would not be that different in future (but reality doesn't have to do anything with games, so gameplay first, than all other things  :))
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phyrex

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2013, 05:32:43 PM »


-COMMAND POINT FEEDBACK:
Do not remove the rts aspect for people that want to play it that way.

alex said in the past its not supposed to be played like an RTS, the command system is meant to give orders to the fleet as general tactics whom the hierarchy below you will figure how to do at there convenience. (like in real-life, higher-ups give orders and its up to lower ranked officers to manage how to do it).

Its actually a very important thing because it will act together with the officer system later on when thats implemented where a ship captain's personality will affect how he deals with given assignment
The problem is, the AI is not very good. I would not have need to control it myself if the AI did  good job, but it is not the case, and i think it will never be the case as making a good AI is extremely hard. Also, limiting CP actually force you to use the AI, not because they are good, but because you dont have any other option.
If i want to use officers i will use them because they do the job done, but please don't force me to use them, especially if they are bad. I mean, the game has character development, there can be skills that if you want you can level so you have more direct control.

Anyway, in reality you are not limited how many orders you can give, especially in modern age, so i think it would not be that different in future (but reality doesn't have to do anything with games, so gameplay first, than all other things  :))

You are taking the whole thing the wrong way.
Right now, you are looking at it from the game's current but unfinished point of view.
When "officers" will be in, you WILL be forced to use them because in practice, they represent the guy piloting the ships you arent. Indirectly quoting alex, he said you'll have to manage your officers decently so that a cowardly one dosent end up commanding an assault ship and so on.

In short, you must look at this not from the game's current naked combat aspect, but from what it will look like when its finished.

And by the way. in-game, you are the admiral of your entire fleet. Even in real-life, a general will not micro-manage his entire division during missions. He gives orders to his lower officers who then delegate themselves and get the job done.
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Andy H.K.

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Re: Feedback about fighters, CP and maybe some bugs
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2013, 08:16:13 PM »

Against end game fleets most enemy have decent point defense. Fighter wings lack the muscle to take the punch so they pretty much survive on the virtue of them being numerous and keep coming back. I don't use pure carrier doctrine, instead I always deploy a pair of hybrid-carrier ships (eg. I would be in Odyssey, and then the other would be Venture in Vanilla). By keeping the flight decks close to combat, I can shorten time to refit. Another merit is that the shield of the large ship can provide cover when returning under fire.

As for commanding, fighters I usually just keep them close to my ships with Escort command. In larger fights what they can realistically do is capturing objectives and close fire and PD support, and most enemy frigates would die so fast it's not worth intercepting.

For bombers, at the beginning of the battle I would delay deploying them or hold them back with rally command. After the battle line is drawn, with the 0.6 AI what I usually do is cancelling the rally waypoint and let them figure things out. With so many enemies around I found assigning strike command to be actually detrimental to the fight.... The target you assigned is seldom vulnerable and even if they were, situation change so fast. They could move away the the front line and your bombers would just make a lot of fruitless runs and sparing a lot of targets of oppotunities. I think you just need to trust the AI and let go.

I prefer dagger because they provide bigger punch and has more bomber per wing. What usually happen is that a wing is uaually flying close to my Odyssey with the constant rearming, and they will just hit targets left and right, pretty much becoming a remote torpedo launcher to my ship. You'll be surprised how ingenious the AI could be.
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