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Author Topic: a simple improvment to CR mechanics(updated)  (Read 4141 times)

dmaiski

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a simple improvment to CR mechanics(updated)
« on: October 14, 2013, 02:45:45 PM »

CR mechanic is great, but one sugestion... cr cost to deploy should scale inversely to ship size, and CR restore/supply cost should scale too

ei.
Code: java
class          cr/deployment        cr recovery       supplies per cr%
frigate,      ~40%cr to deploy,     40%cr/day,        1 supplies/%
destroyer,    ~30%cr to deploy,     20%cr/day,        2 supplies/%
cruiser,      ~20%cr to deploy,     10%cr/day,      4 supplies/%
capital,      ~10%cr to deploy,     5%cr/day,      8 supplies/%
these are all aproximate values, not referanced to any specific ship*


this would make large ships more viable and usefull to form the backbone of a fleet

and its lore friendly:
-small ships are small
--very few redundunt systems/reinforcement
--just being in combat means their systems will need an overhault to make sure nothing broke

-big ships are big
--very many redundunt systems/reinforcement
--even if subsystem A1.44-6 broke A1.44-5, A1.44-4, and A1.44-3 are its redundunt backups so no biggie


old sugestion, oct 17th:
Spoiler
CR mechanic is great, but one sugestion... cr cost to deploy should scale inversly to ship size

ei.
frigate: ~40%cr to deploy
destroyer: ~30%cr to deploy
cruiser: ~20%cr to deploy
capital: ~10%cr to deploy

this would make large ships more viable and usefull to form the backbone of a fleet

and its lore friendly:
-small ships are small
--very few redundunt systems/reinforcement
--just being in combat means their systems will need an overhault to make sure nothing broke

-big ships are big
--very many redundunt systems/reinforcement
--even if subsystem A1.44-6 broke A1.44-5, A1.44-4, and A1.44-3 are its redundunt backups so no biggie
[close]
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 04:31:40 AM by dmaiski »
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BISO
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Cosmitz

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2013, 03:05:00 PM »

The way the ships are balanced are similar to what you're saying, but the difference comes in strenght. A lone Hyperion can wreck havock and take down entire fleets if piloted right, that's why it's balanced as being used as an ace-up-your-sleeve once in a chain of battles and not a constant presence. On the other hand, for the same supply cost you can get about four or five Hounds which you can deploy four battles in a row. It's a matter of keeping a strike fleet or a resilient fleet depending on what ships you use.
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dmaiski

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2013, 03:31:27 PM »

the ~XX% in my first post are just really rough aproximations

a hyperion and a hound are both frigates

im talking about when you have the choice of fielding a paragon or a fleet of 6 lashers

as it is the 6 lashers are the obvious choice since they are faster, stronger(combined attack, anihilator pods), and cheaper(20%cr vs 35%cr)

there is no situation where throwing the paragon out to fight will be in your favour (especialy if you have bombers/carrier)

« Last Edit: October 14, 2013, 03:34:24 PM by dmaiski »
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Megas

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2013, 03:45:57 PM »

I rather use a Paragon or any other battleship instead of a frigate swarm against a defense fleet (Hegemony with three Onslaughts or Tri-Tachyon with a Paragon and others).  Paragon almost always survives.  It is very hard to eliminate a defense fleet with frigates (and/or destroyers) only without taking some casualties.  That said, frigate swarms are great against anything less for the reasons you pointed out.
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Thaago

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2013, 05:17:07 PM »

6 Lashers may be much faster than a Paragon, but they are certainly not stronger. They can't all focus on a single target, have low range, and are easy to defeat in detail. Heck, with combat skills I'll take an entire SDF with a Paragon and not really worry.

With regards to the OP:
I don't mind the current deployment CR costs, but what bugs me is that larger ships have slower CR regeneration. What is all that crew for if not to keep the ships running?
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ciago92

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2013, 06:13:27 PM »

what if excess crew increased CR regen? subject to balance and diminishing returns, it would be a good way to spend money and supplies (supporting extra crew) to regen quicker
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Megas

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2013, 07:27:01 PM »

I don't mind the current deployment CR costs, but what bugs me is that larger ships have slower CR regeneration. What is all that crew for if not to keep the ships running?
Gaining XP so that the player does not need to invest points in the skill that increases crew XP unless he wants the Making Do perk.  Beyond that, it would be nice if extra crew did more useful things for the supplies (and logistics) they eat.
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BillyRueben

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2013, 08:04:45 PM »

@OP: With that change, it would be cheaper to deploy your cap ship solo in every engagement rather than only when you need it. Again, the point is that you only deploy what you need, rather than deploy the "ball of death" cap ship every time you get in to a fight. This is what makes the game interesting.
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Histidine

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 10:34:27 PM »

If this is implemented, CR recovery rates will need need changing to retain relative deployment costs (in terms of supplies used).

I can see frigates having low immediate endurance and high recovery, while capitals are the opposite. In the current Starsector, however, I suspect this won't make much of a difference since you very rarely fight back-to-back battles (in fact, you want to avoid them if you can help it).
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Debido

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2013, 09:22:33 AM »

@OP: With that change, it would be cheaper to deploy your cap ship solo in every engagement rather than only when you need it. Again, the point is that you only deploy what you need, rather than deploy the "ball of death" cap ship every time you get in to a fight. This is what makes the game interesting.

Not necessarily, it depends on the cost of CR recovery. It may instead cost *pulls a number* 50 supplies per CR% recovered, you can scale the cost of CR recovery so that it's still interesting.
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Wyvern

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2013, 10:32:02 AM »

@OP: With that change, it would be cheaper to deploy your cap ship solo in every engagement rather than only when you need it. Again, the point is that you only deploy what you need, rather than deploy the "ball of death" cap ship every time you get in to a fight. This is what makes the game interesting.

Not necessarily, it depends on the cost of CR recovery. It may instead cost *pulls a number* 50 supplies per CR% recovered, you can scale the cost of CR recovery so that it's still interesting.
While that's not a bad idea, necessarily, I would like to point out that it has a side effect: namely, making larger ships inordinately expensive to un-moth-ball.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

dmaiski

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2013, 10:47:11 AM »

i do belive capital ships IRL are also not verry happy being mothballed, imagine how many tonnes of mothballs you would have to clear out?
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BISO
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Debido

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2013, 07:26:46 PM »

@OP: With that change, it would be cheaper to deploy your cap ship solo in every engagement rather than only when you need it. Again, the point is that you only deploy what you need, rather than deploy the "ball of death" cap ship every time you get in to a fight. This is what makes the game interesting.

Not necessarily, it depends on the cost of CR recovery. It may instead cost *pulls a number* 50 supplies per CR% recovered, you can scale the cost of CR recovery so that it's still interesting.
While that's not a bad idea, necessarily, I would like to point out that it has a side effect: namely, making larger ships inordinately expensive to un-moth-ball.

That's true, I didn't consider that side effect. I'm not in total agreement with the mothball system at the moment. When you mothball a system it goes to 0% CR, yet you don't receive anything in return? It's like something isn't being conserved. If mothballing reduced the CR by 10/15/20/25 percent instead of completely removed it, it might just make more sense. Or perhaps receiving some supplies in return for the CR removed?

We'd have to find a good balance between activation cost and CR recovery supply usage that is proportional to the effectiveness of the ship in question.
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dmaiski

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Re: a simple improvment to CR mechanics(updated)
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 04:29:43 AM »

I incorporated the sugestions into the main post, values are all extremly crude, but are there to give you some idea of what it would look like
(you would need either a repair gantry or a dry dock to bring capital ships to full cr in any reasonable period of time)
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BISO
(WIP) lots of shiny new weapons ( :-[ i have more weapons then sprites :-[ )

i got a cat pad
its like a mouse pad but better!