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Author Topic: Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics  (Read 5680 times)

Reshy

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Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics
« on: September 19, 2013, 07:09:18 AM »

Okay so I'm trying to sit here and understand why CR was implemented in the first place.  I mean it sounds good but it seems like for the most part your fleet is simply too small for it to be safe to deploy less than every single ship in the fleet.  I don't know but I'm thinking that maybe with the implementation of CR that logistics can be phased out entirely.  Logistics is simply an artificial limit to compensate for other issues, if we're able to keep our fleets paid for and well supplied we should by rights be able to have as large of a fleet as we want.  The computers certainly can at any rate.


Enemy fleets also don't seem to conscious about logistics and that needs to change, none of the fleets carry around the amount of supply ships that Alex said they should and that the player certainly would need to have.  I believe I heard Alex saying you'd likely need a small swarm of freighters just to field a single capital ship.  So where the hell are all the freighters?!





It might also be worth dropping the logistics cost of ships by 50% and reducing the frigate supply cost by another half.  Adding a skill that reduces logistics cost by like 3% per level would be good.
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Pentarctagon

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Re: Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2013, 07:48:59 AM »

I don't know why you'd need a bunch of freighters for a capital ship, I've been running around with just a Paragon without problems.
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Plasmatic

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Re: Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2013, 09:08:21 AM »

I'm noticing that when my fleet is small, I need every ship I have to win, and in bigger fleets, I can't catch the fights where I would not need all my ships..

another thing would be to drop supply cost (usage and credit cost)

Several times I've run out of supplies when I'm low on cash, Couldn't afford enough supply to get CR above 15% and couldn't catch and small fight where I could win with 15% CR.

only had 1 ship so I just had to restart the campaign.

I understand what Alex was going for, but I think the cost needs to drop, currently unless you have a very steady income of supplies you are screwed.
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rex

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Re: Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2013, 09:12:44 AM »

I'm noticing that when my fleet is small, I need every ship I have to win, and in bigger fleets, I can't catch the fights where I would not need all my ships..

So you are saying you need to invest skill points in navigation and/or find+buy some tugs?
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Plasmatic

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Re: Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2013, 10:38:00 AM »

Sure, there's that, but that requires actually remembering and realizing you could do that ^^ :P

Main point still stands though.. if you get caught out poor, with low CR, you are boned.
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Wyvern

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Re: Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2013, 12:34:57 PM »

Yeah - I was used to, in previous versions, happily just buying a new ship when I hit enough credits to afford the hull.  Now, I have to be much more careful - instead of saving up 50k credits for an Apogee + weapons, I want to save up more like 80k credits to make sure I can keep the thing running while I haul it back over to pirate central.

For a large fleet, if you get caught out poor, you can probably recover - sell some ships, mothball some ships, fight with the ones that haven't been crippled by accidents...

But for a small fleet, if things go bad, there's no recovery - you're just toast; one accident will take your flagship down to where it can't be fielded, and then you die horribly and restart in a dinky little frigate that doesn't have enough supplies to even get to the hegemony station.  (This may be due to combat aptitude's bonus CR resulting in the restart frigate not starting at full CR?  Not sure...)

And tugs are vital if you're running around with anything with maximum burn lower than 5; you need at least that to be able to catch pirates.
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Morrokain

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Re: Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2013, 01:57:45 PM »

Quote
Several times I've run out of supplies when I'm low on cash, Couldn't afford enough supply to get CR above 15% and couldn't catch and small fight where I could win with 15% CR.

only had 1 ship so I just had to restart the campaign.


There definitely is a much larger difficulty curve now that supplies actually matter. Although I too have run into your situation and it is frustrating, I actually enjoy that more thought has to be put into resource management. Before, the beginning was very tough because frigate v frigate combat can be a challenge and is unpredictable at best. But once you got past that hurdle the game became trivial. Get an energy ship.. dominate with no worry of ever losing it for any reason. Now you just can't grind credits for battle after battle without any need to worry about the consequences and I think this is a good thing for the game overall. This update added a lot of need depth.

I think what makes this more frustrating than it needs to be, however, is the lack of an economy or any other viable way to secure money or supplies other than combat. It makes small fleet operations an "all or nothing" kind of deal.
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Alfalfa

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Re: Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2013, 02:28:54 PM »

While it's true that the learning curve has become more of a sheer granite cliff with a hammer and a bucket of spikes at the bottom, I feel that with some minor tweaks and a few more features, the whole logistics system will be an integral part of the experience.

Off the bat, adding some more Leadership skills to help mitigate logistics issues has possibilities.  Some skills I've thought of:

Supply Line Logistics: reduces logistics use of all noncombat ships by 10% per level.
     Level 5 Perk: noncombat ships use no supplies.
     Level 10 Perk: noncombat ships have 50% more storage (cargo, crew, fuel).

Guerrilla Warfare: reduces CR penalty for exceeding logistics by 10% per level.
     Level 5 Perk: halves the chance of accidents.
     Level 10 Perk: ships with below 10% CR may be deployed (effective CR of 10%).


Also, Alex mentioned the possibility of a logistics cost-reducing skill for fighters, so:

Hanger Optimization: reduces logistics use of fighter squadrons by 5% per level.
     Level 5 Perk: unlocks hullmod Accelerated Launch Rails (doubles fighter deployment rate).
     Level 10 Perk: doubles repair rate of squadrons.
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Reshy

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Re: Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2013, 09:04:17 PM »

I don't know why you'd need a bunch of freighters for a capital ship, I've been running around with just a Paragon without problems.


Alex said that freighters would be necessary for larger fleets and the largest ships could require several freighters to keep fueled and functional.  However that's not really happened, it's mostly the lower level ships that eat the most supplies and you're still bogged down by the low fleet cap so you can't exactly have freighters in your fleet without seriously handicapping your fleet.
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TaLaR

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Re: Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2013, 09:23:32 PM »

Well, need for freighters might also depend on how far you need to be able to travel without resupplying. Right now whole game universe is extremely small...
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arwan

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Re: Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2013, 10:43:48 PM »

And tugs are vital if you're running around with anything with maximum burn lower than 5; you need at least that to be able to catch pirates.

burn 5 is critical to keep.. if your below a burn 5  you need to get rid of the big slow ships till you either have a tug to get there speed up to 5 or have the requisite skills to get it to 5. also.. keep a few fast frigates / thunders around for those pursue engagements. there going to be quick fights. so frigates are fine to field on there own and depending on the fleet your chasing you will likely get enough supplies to keep going like that. at least that is what i did to level 30 with a fleet that consisted of an odyssey, atlas, aurora, eagle, dominator and a Medusa and 2 hammerheads, and 4 ox (tugs). i was eventually going to add thunders to the mix and an astral but got tired waiting for an astral to show up in the shops.. had over 2 mill credits before i just restarted.

*since i restarted a few days ago i had forgoten i lost the destroyers in a huge fleet engagement and purchased a ton of frigates to just rofl pirate fleets for supplies waiting for the astral to show up.. here is what i had when i restarted.


java 2013-09-20 01-48-38-47 by matthew_32825, on Flickr


java 2013-09-20 01-48-28-12 by matthew_32825, on Flickr


java 2013-09-20 01-48-24-15 by matthew_32825, on Flickr


java 2013-09-20 01-49-38-08 by matthew_32825, on Flickr
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 11:08:37 PM by arwan »
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Alex
You won't be able to refit fighters and bombers at all. They're designed/balanced around having a particular set of weapons and would be very broken if you could change it. Which ones you pick for your fleet -out of quite a few that are available- is the choice here, not how they're outfitted.

Taverius

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Re: Larger Fleets and Improved Logistics
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2013, 04:10:19 PM »

I don't know why you'd need a bunch of freighters for a capital ship, I've been running around with just a Paragon without problems.


Alex said that freighters would be necessary for larger fleets and the largest ships could require several freighters to keep fueled and functional.  However that's not really happened, it's mostly the lower level ships that eat the most supplies and you're still bogged down by the low fleet cap so you can't exactly have freighters in your fleet without seriously handicapping your fleet.
That depends on how you play, where you hang out, how much you travel, what ships you use.

If you do loot everything and sell it you'll find yourself using cargo shops a lot.
Certain ship types use more supplies per battle, i.e. high-tech, fighters.
If you play a pirate you don't have stations that repair you so you'll use more supplies repairing in space.
If you travel between systems (mods, obviously) a lot you'll suddenly find yourself using fuel ships, especially with tugs. Also more cargo.

I do all of the above and about 25-35% of my fleet is civilian ships of various kinds. One Tarsus is good for 4 frigates/wings, 2 destroyers, or 1 cruiser. Or half a battleship. Same with a Dram, since the sector is fairly small even with mods at the moment.
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