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Author Topic: Combat Readyness isn't fun..  (Read 151220 times)

Eternity57

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #375 on: September 26, 2013, 12:10:26 PM »

Sorry guys I do not read the whole 25 pages of this post, I just have few minutes tonight for this post.

Anyway I feel I'm at the right place ;-) so let's go...

It is all about the supplies mechanics that I really appreciate but I might think that a tiny tweak or advices could help a lot ;-) Here my points :
1 - ships really use a lot of supplies to repair and moreover to regain CR
     for exemple a fleet of 100/100 point use more than 120 supplies a day after a combat and this for several days before to get back to normal consumption (approx 25/day)
2 - On the other side an attack fleet can not really store more than 1000~1500 supplies so then you suffer of an over storage penalties then it drop supplies on an even larger consumption (>125/days). Then you no longer have enough time to go back to a station to repair than you already running out of supplies before and then you start loosing CR and you experience some more or less criticals accidents :-(
3 - Supplies is really expensives (approx  120 credits for 1 unit) then for 1000 supplies you pay 120.000 credits finaly just for a few days of fleet maintenance according a battle each 3~5 days. And 120.000 credits if really a high amount when you compare to ship cost... meaning that ship maintenance cost really a lot comparatively to ship initial cost !

Even if a battle could allow you to gain approx 1000 supplies ! according to points 1 & 2 you do not gain anything at all, worth you probably need to buy lot of supplies at station... if you still have credits because of the supplies cost...

So at the end, I really enjoy to have build a large fleet but according the rules and load balancing above I no longer able to explore map or run after a fleet because I came out of supplies in less than 7~8 days in my case... and my 200.000 credits just allow to buy missing supplies after returning from a battle (last time 1800 supplies was requiered to repair my fleet so that was the same price of my whole fleet 216.000 credits !?)...

May be I missing something important in the new way to play or if not that means to me that once you've got a large fleet you will no longer opportunities to explore the new others systems... and encouter other fleet on others systems.... because of 7 to 8 days of travel supplies...

Need a tweak or some advices ;-)
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 12:16:50 PM by Eternity57 »
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Debido

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #376 on: September 26, 2013, 12:52:48 PM »

@Eternity57

Thank you for the feedback for 0.6, your experience is not that uncommon and the negative effects of CR and supply usage have been commented and debated upon...a lot.

I can make some generalisations about your fleet size and composition needing to be modified depending on who you're attacking, but in the mean time do you have at least 2 Atlas carriers? For a 100 point fleet I often have 2 Atlas just for carrying supplies (with 4-6 tugs). Depending on the hunting grounds I will modify how much supplies I carry with me.

The other thing is who you're hunting, if you hunt the Hedgemony defence fleet, Hedgmony supply fleet, Independent Traders etc. Whoever is the biggest you'll get some big supply loots.

When not taking on capital ships aim for smaller ships with less supply usage. Large waves of fighters and bombers are cheap...er, use less CR and you don't have to 'really' pay for hull repair.

If you upload your savegame, or maybe post a screenshot of your fleet composition others might be able to help you as well. I can't really tell you how to play because how I play is not the same way you play or even want to play.

I'm not trying to dismiss your assertions, as there are some genuine balance issues with 0.6 which are caused by a myriad of reasons, but check out the 0.6 tips thread which may help you get the most out of this release.

http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6713.0
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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #377 on: September 26, 2013, 01:06:07 PM »

Freighters are almost required to pick up one fight's worth of salvage without exceeding capacity, provided the enemy fleet you vanquished was roughly your size or bigger.

Frigates (aside from Hyperion and maybe Tempest) are relatively cheap to field.  If you can win battles with frigate swarms without taking heavy casualties, and have an Atlas and/or multiple Gemini for storage, you can pickup a load of supplies, head back to base, fix your ships, and deposit the leftovers.  Rinse and repeat until you have more than you need.  Frigates are great for pursuit if you want to do the fighting yourself.  If not, autoresolve is an option.

Once you have a stockpiled many stacks of supplies at your station, consider standing down after pursuits if you can get most of your CR back.  That should ease cargo limit and CR recovery.  Of course, if you killed ships with rare weapons you cannot get enough of, by all means salvage.

0.6 is not friendly to big fleets that are not frigate swarms.  They (non-frigate swarms) are viable if you take the necessary preparations, but are not as effective except in the largest of battles.
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Shield

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #378 on: September 26, 2013, 01:17:39 PM »

I modded my files to reduce how quickly you use and gain combat readiness to make logistics feel easier to deal with, makes the game a bit easier to deal with, that way you can still fight using your ships is just that the longer you use them the longer it takes form them to get back up to par, also cut supply usage in half, so that way you can still have a couple of battle but you might need to go to a station afterwards.
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Blaster

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #379 on: September 26, 2013, 01:17:54 PM »

Likewise, I didn't read the whole thread, so these are perhaps my (umpteenth time repeated) opinions and ideas.  

Right now, the system as it is seems a bit broken in terms of net gain of supplies verse expenditure of said supplies to regain CR.  It's not impossible to gain surplus cash and buy more ships, but it is slightly challenging (not the good kind of challenge either).  

Just this afternoon I tackled a large Pirate carrier fleet and had a slug fest with them.  It was ugly, but I came out on top - only really lost one ship and got one frigate beat the heck up. Everything I gained in loot was sold to buy more supplies to replace what I depleted from my own stores just getting CR up to a manageable level - and that was a race to the nearest station as I didn't want to get stuck out in the middle of the system with no supplies.  At the end of it I came out with 1 or 2k in profit.  Not very tenable to a long play through.  

Some ideas:

I do enjoy the feature of selecting priorities of repair, but I didn't notice if this was automatic or not (that is to say if the repairs and process of gaining CR was automatic).  If supply distribution to prioritized repairs is automatic, as well as repairs in general, I believe it should only be allowed to start manually so the supply burn doesn't kick in immediately after the fight.  Scuttling a ship based on hull integrity should yield higher supplies as well, and similarly I'm not sure if this is already the case.  

In addition, I think a neat feature would be to have an industry base constantly churning out supplies.  For example, if your fleet takes a planet or a station that planet or station should generate X number of supplies over the month, the process of which could be impacted by skills or investments into the planet or station.  Along the same vein, repairing at a friendly planet or station should cost less supply than repairing at a backwater station in the middle of pirate territory.  This gets us back into the action without having to worry too much about where supplies come from.  Maybe this is a bit unbalanced, but end game it makes a bit of sense.  These planets or stations could also generate aggro from pirates and raiders, and even attract mercenaries to hire.  But that's a little off topic :)

As a side bar, I think CR readiness should be determined by more than just a generic "supplies".  I would like to see ammunition, missiles, "crystals" for beams (whatever really)  go into impacting the CR of weapon systems, while things like "sheet metal" or "emergency duct tape" go into effecting the combat readiness of the hull.  How I see it play out is: "OK, we have no missiles, no bullets, but our ship can fly - at least we can get home and rearm."  Or  "Our ship is leaking personnel, and there are fires on all the decks, but we can still fire our guns!"  Perhaps this is bordering too much on micromanagement, but in my opinion it adds a little more diversity to the situation post combat.  As is, every situation is the same - Fight ends, you high-tail it to the nearest station to sell and buy more supplies, rinse repeat.  

I'm sure I have more thoughts on the supply mechanic, but I'm at work right now, so I should probably do that.
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Debido

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #380 on: September 26, 2013, 02:58:12 PM »

Likewise, I didn't read the whole thread, so these are perhaps my (umpteenth time repeated) opinions and ideas.  

Right now, the system as it is seems a bit broken in terms of net gain of supplies verse expenditure of said supplies to regain CR.  It's not impossible to gain surplus cash and buy more ships, but it is slightly challenging (not the good kind of challenge either).  

...

Some ideas:

I do enjoy the feature of selecting priorities of repair, but I didn't notice if this was automatic or not (that is to say if the repairs and process of gaining CR was automatic).  

Not automatic

If supply distribution to prioritized repairs is automatic, as well as repairs in general, I believe it should only be allowed to start manually so the supply burn doesn't kick in immediately after the fight.

Not a bad idea to have a global on/off switch for repairs, less clicks = better gameplay experience

Scuttling a ship based on hull integrity should yield higher supplies as well, and similarly I'm not sure if this is already the case.

I'm not sure either

In addition, I think a neat feature would be to have an industry base constantly churning out supplies.

Absolutely,  this is a planned feature for final release, from the front page

Upcoming Features

+ Hire officers to give skill bonuses, pilot auxiliary ships, and oversee your operations
+ Explore the sector for knowledge and profit
+ Trade goods, run mining operations, build industries — and defend your interests
+ Become involved in factional politics



As a side bar, I think CR readiness should be determined by more than just a generic "supplies".

This has been suggested to the Alex, however focus is being maintained on a simplified stamina system. This is not to say you're suggestion is wrong but on a project with limited budget there isn't going to be a drawn out development and testing of every single variation of how to implement CR, and at the moment it would seem that the current mechanic is satisfying the base requirements for Alex (that's my impression but I can't speak for Alex)

I'm sure I have more thoughts on the supply mechanic, but I'm at work right now, so I should probably do that.

Not really, Star Sector is a way of life, seriously stop doing that silly 'work' thing and some some real 'work' in Corvus defeating pirates :D
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ciago92

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #381 on: September 26, 2013, 05:15:07 PM »

@Debido it's easier if you break his quote up into multiple pieces rather than replying in the quote

repair actually is automatic except for designating logistical priority, otherwise everything is automatic

I agree that there should be an on/off switch but I forget where Alex came down on the issue

Hull integrity does affect the amount of supplies received

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Dr.Noid

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #382 on: September 27, 2013, 01:49:48 AM »

Another important point is that it is very likely that in the final game large-scale battles are not supposed to be profitable.

Want to take out that large enemy defence force around that planet you want to take over? You can, but it's going to cost you! Once you have that planet you might be able to use it to produce stuff and recover the cost on the long term, but you'd better have a large stack of supplies ready at hand or your fleet will be out of order for some time to come.

Of course the problem with the current alpha is that the only way to generate revenue is through battle. That's probably why fleets drop so many supplies.
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Eternity57

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #383 on: September 27, 2013, 11:47:04 AM »

@Eternity57

Thank you for the feedback for 0.6, your experience is not that uncommon and the negative effects of CR and supply usage have been commented and debated upon...a lot.

I can make some generalisations about your fleet size and composition needing to be modified depending on who you're attacking, but in the mean time do you have at least 2 Atlas carriers? For a 100 point fleet I often have 2 Atlas just for carrying supplies (with 4-6 tugs). Depending on the hunting grounds I will modify how much supplies I carry with me.

The other thing is who you're hunting, if you hunt the Hedgemony defence fleet, Hedgmony supply fleet, Independent Traders etc. Whoever is the biggest you'll get some big supply loots.

When not taking on capital ships aim for smaller ships with less supply usage. Large waves of fighters and bombers are cheap...er, use less CR and you don't have to 'really' pay for hull repair.

If you upload your savegame, or maybe post a screenshot of your fleet composition others might be able to help you as well. I can't really tell you how to play because how I play is not the same way you play or even want to play.

I'm not trying to dismiss your assertions, as there are some genuine balance issues with 0.6 which are caused by a myriad of reasons, but check out the 0.6 tips thread which may help you get the most out of this release.

http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6713.0

Thank you Debido

Here my fleet :



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I just realized that I do not know what is a Tug !?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 11:48:47 AM by Eternity57 »
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sherpajack

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #384 on: September 27, 2013, 11:52:08 AM »

Most of maintenance and operating cost is salaries, something the game makes no effort to cover, unless supplies are also payroll (given they are abstracted to cover everything else we may as well say they are.)

I presume this is why crew and marines eat supplies daily. Perhaps elite crew also ought to consume 6 times as many supplies per day as regular crew?
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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #385 on: September 27, 2013, 12:39:18 PM »

Quote
Perhaps elite crew also ought to consume 6 times as many supplies per day as regular crew?
No!  That would make them almost as much a liability as marines, since supply consumption is tied to logistics.  Powering up my crew should not make my fleet weaker by reducing the number of ships I can use within my Logistics rating.
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BillyRueben

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #386 on: September 27, 2013, 02:02:45 PM »

Quote
Perhaps elite crew also ought to consume 6 times as many supplies per day as regular crew?
No!  That would make them almost as much a liability as marines, since supply consumption is tied to logistics.  Powering up my crew should not make my fleet weaker by reducing the number of ships I can use within my Logistics rating.
Agreed. I don't see any solid gameplay reason Elites should "eat" more than greens.
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Debido

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #387 on: September 27, 2013, 02:35:06 PM »

-SNIP_

http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6713.0

Thank you Debido

Here my fleet :



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I just realized that I do not know what is a Tug !?

Sure thing Eternity57, let's have a look. Now I'm not going to say you're ship composition is wrong, just that the rules have changed a bit so some are favoured over others.

The first thoughts I had, and these are general.
  • This is mostly an expensive, hi-tech fleet - your large ships use most of their CR on each deploy. Low CR then takes longer to build up so there is a higher opportunity cost on each deployment so you have to make sure each deployment count
  • No Tugs :D so you're going to be traveling VERY slowly, check this linkhttp://starsector.wikia.com/wiki/Ox for more information
  • You have a construction rig, these things have a slow burn, consume a ton of supplies and aren't quite necessary.
  • You're quite a few points above your 100 point Logistics Rating, this will be negatively affecting the CR of all your ships
  • No Atlas Super Carrier(s)! These legends of supply freighting are a must to any space faring citizen. 1-2 minimum for any fleet this size, please see http://starsector.wikia.com/wiki/Atlas

Ok, so here is where I'd start with the fleet composition based upon your selection. First I'd drop the Astral and go for a couple of cheaper carrier, if you want to get your ships out more often like the Venture and Condor and removed the expensive Apogee.

This fleet can travel at speed 7 or 8, it needs another tug to travel at speed 8. It can carry 2411 fuel, 5,031 supplies, uses 17 supplies a day before CR/repair and can smash the Askonia defence fleet with ease. This fleet can probably make at least a 1,000,000 Credits an hour if I kept at it. You may want to swap the composition around for taking on the Hedgmony defence fleet, it depends on you preference for killing whales Onslaughts.

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Debido

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #388 on: September 27, 2013, 02:37:19 PM »

Quote
Perhaps elite crew also ought to consume 6 times as many supplies per day as regular crew?
No!  That would make them almost as much a liability as marines, since supply consumption is tied to logistics.  Powering up my crew should not make my fleet weaker by reducing the number of ships I can use within my Logistics rating.
Agreed. I don't see any solid gameplay reason Elites should "eat" more than greens.
+1 this is a gameplay killer. If you think CR isn't fun, then paying Elite princesses and needed to dump them off when they cost too much is a real downer. Why not just put explosive collars on them like in SPAZ? That would be much cheaper than paying them.
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xenoargh

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #389 on: September 27, 2013, 07:11:44 PM »

I don't think they should eat more Supplies; that would make CR death-spirals even easier for newbies in Frigates, where getting a single Frigate full of Elites is pretty easy.

They should get paid a weekly wage, though, to reverse the difficulty curve.  Still think that's important.
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