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[Fireball14]

It sad to say, but i did not came out with perfect solution.
One thing i learned while working on various projects - full review of main problems mostly helps to bring out obvious solutions. So lets begin:

Observation 1 - CR cost problem

Lets analyze biggest problem right now. What is this problem?
CR taking more than player, playing without perfect skill, make in same time.
Now lets break that statement on key points.
1) ”playing without perfect skill”
2) “CR taking more than player make in same time.”

1) It means that player does not have sufficient skill when he introduced to core mechanic.
Solution: Tutorial in this case won't help,cos it won't be able to change new player thinking in short time. In my opinion solution here - is to show player in game how to “play right” this game.
Basically it means that player needs to be introduce step by step to CR. Not from start of new game.

2) Means that something wrong with players favorite play style becos game did not took it into account, OR, something wrong with game numbers, OR , both.

Lets analyze CR - what is it? Its a system that meant to show fleet stamina. How much fighting power fleet has left.
Why does it dosent work well? CR regaining most of game time, becos player most of game time is in some fight. But that mean CR will burn through players money most of game time, and money do not regenerate on its own. Plus to that same amount of money go to repairs. Plus to that money for fuel. So lets hold that thought for now.
Now second problem is that player can't go into the fight without CR, becos he restricted by game rules - not by game mechanic.
Now lets bring both thoughts together. Player low on money -> Goes into the fight -> Gets some money, but because of not perfect play style he gets more CR damage (which translates into money) than he makes by selling spoils of victory -> Player does not have money -> does not have CR -> Cant go into fight -> Game over. BUT i don't see game over screen when it happens. So lets assume it wasn't intended to be a game over. Solution to this part of a problem seems simple. Make CR true stamina stat. When its full player gets bonuses, when its low player gets penaltis (like it is now) but there should be no money cost to recover lost stamina. It should just tell player that he/she needs to back off a little or chose his /her targets more carefully.
Also there must be no cap on how low CR can be to enter combat. I played couple of fights with 2% CR just to test it. Its almost impossible to win such fight cos of shutdowns. So instead of hard game rule, player will hit soft cup on combat penalties.
Now lets analyze that solution: CR will no longer be a resource drain on player, instead it will fulfil its role as limiting factor of when player needs to deploy his biggest ships, or if he needs to back off to base. BTW nice addition in this case would be CR restoration on starbases for money. So player have chose: 1) Use other ships in next combat. 2) Wait a while to restore CR to players heavy hitters. 3) Go back to base and drain some money in exchange for CR restoration.

And there you have your spell preparation system. =) But in this case all sides are happy. Steamroller's can go on rampage from time to time. Frigate swarmers can play it strategically. Noob player don't get into game over loop. Everyone happy.

Now lets shortly repeat what need to be done for this solution:
1) CR regain do not cost supplies.
2) CR combat start cap needs to be removed.
3) CR restoration in exchange for money implanted into starbases.

Observation 2: Hurry dose not work as intended.
Now lets see a hurry problem - what is it? AI ships run before they enter real combat.
Solution:
If CR shows total fleet morale, then lets make it so. Whenever any ship leaves combat field with  less than 25% CR it has a chance to surrender after combat. That goes for player ships too(not flagship). And less CR they have -> bigger chance of surrender whenever fleet retreats.
So in the end, more fleet tries to run, more it loses. Plus CR gets more meaning for player that really play this game poorly, and not with different play style.

Observation 3: Big ships have a lot less fighting because of low burn.
Another real problem on a list and it is pretty obvious.

First of all problem with all burn system is that its integer type. Its need to be changed to float, so fleet with little more speed can eventually catch enemy if they really want to. Plus we can have more sense in navigation skill. Just think of it as warp speed in Star Trek. Warp speed was a float too.

Now how do we fix it?
I have a couple of ways:
1) Calculate burn speed based on rounded fleet speed. This will enable mixed fleets to be more valuable than true BS or true swarms. But this have a drawback: Eventually players will have a fleet of BS/fighters 50/50. No other vessels be in a fleet. So i don't think this IS a solution.

2) Create stationary heavily defended targets. Lets say base raids for example. This will create more targets for BS fleets. There is no drawback except, there have to be a lot more bases to raid if devs will want this solution to work.

3) Make pursuing fleet a little more faster, if pursuing burn  = runners burn. Biggest drawback of this method is a hard noobe start of the game. So i don't think this solution gonna work at all.

Like i said i did not found perfect solution for this one.

And last Observation: Supply costs are too high/ too low.

Balancing this one is tricky.
Lets see logic behind this one - if supply cost too high-> noob player have a hard time to survive. And skilled players have too easy game because they sell surplus supplies.
And if it is too low -> players won't feel any consequences of losing a battle.

But why does real world economy do not get this problem? Easy one - free market.

If there is something too many -> cost falls. If something too too scares - cost rises.
Same way it needs to be implanted in game for everything including guns.

So if some dude just robbed big convoy and tries to sell it in one place he gets lower price for every unit he sells. But if he tries to sell supplies when there is so little in base - he gets rich. So in the end game players will still have steady income (but not that much like it is now), and on early game players will have easy time by selling what they don't need. Everyone  happy. =)
Plus there will be point for searching best price for big guns.

[Mattk50]

Why are you being so aggressive? What happened to this community in the time I've been gone?

You are in no way obligated to listen to the video in which we explain our points indepth and very well.


I am in no way obligated to listen to you saying that and can tell you to *** off at my descretion.

You claim to be too busy to make a proper argument but want me(and apparantly everyone else!) to listen to two people's ramblings for an hour. I guess 10 minutes of your time spent organizing your thoughts is worth more than 40 minutes of everyone else's time. And, now that you have 20 views that means 12 hours of other people's time has been wasted because you couldn't spend 10 minutes compressing it into bullet points. And they are ramblings: Its nothing against you or UCAP, but doing a podcast is literally the worst format for this. Text is better in this instance as it allows people easy and quick reference to your argument, and it allows you to make those points clearly and without fumbling or error. There are a lot of people who want to put fourth whatever insights they've had on the subject, the only way for any semblence of quality in the discussion to be maintained is if people spend more time on organizing their individual thoughts. This is impossible when you are doing it live. The reason people have given it any attention at all is because you're well known members of the community.
Perhaps you've never taken forums 101, which is understandable, but after gliding through your posts so far on your prestige in the community, i'd think you'd have known better than to be so unhelpful to the discussion. Its not like people join a forum and instantly know this ***, but seriously.

>COMBAT CONSUMES MORE SUPPLIES THAN YOU MAKE

Yes it does, if you play a certain style. If you play a huge fleet taking on equally big fleets and use that as your point then i simply won't listen to you making your point based on that until you experience the fact that small fleets actually get hit by this, and pretty hard. Right now, there's no way to make money other than combat, and i've made this point already in the video.

This has ALWAYS been a problem. Many friends who i've introduced to the game before .6 have been unable to get past the beginning because they take more damage and lose more ships than they can afford to replace. The difference now is that there are costs even if your lone ship doesnt explode. There is no more "die until i get a dram" exploit to rely on. Other forms of income will fix this, but it is not CR that has been broken.


As for now, my advice to anyone having trouble getting started is to buy an omen(which is pretty cheap) and *** hound/buffalo fleets. Think of it as mining pirate tears. most of all, remember this is an INCOMPLETE GAME IN ALPHA. IT IS NOT DONE. If a version breaks it for you, play another version. It will be fixed in time as the rest of the game comes into focus.

[Joush]

Well... I'll just come out and say it: that's not true. Try a lone Onslaught with maxed out Combat and enough points in Tech to get the nice hullmods and some +OP skills.

Even with terrible weapons, it's a beast. Added bonus: medium-large sized pirate fleets will try to pursue you, so your burn level doesn't matter that much. You can still get it to 5 with Navigation 10 and Augmented Engines, though.

The only issue is cargo capacity (and I'll agree that supplies probably take up a bit too much space relative to the capacity of combat ships), but that only limits your profits somewhat. You'll still be making credits hand over fist. I'd say that's pretty far from "utterly unworkable"! You might even have an easier time than with a frigate fleet since you don't have to chase everyone down. The one thing to watch out for is taking critical damage on your hull/armor; that'll eat a lot of supplies, but should only really happen as the result of a bad piloting mistake.

I suppose I should have said impractical, rather then unworkable. There are builds that can make single capitol ship work, but they require you spend a huge amount of time building the resources required for them and starting somewhere around level thirty.

On the other hand, the Onslaught would be taking on a crippling amount of cargo with every successful battle, and burning a non-trivial amount of the ship's cargo capacity in supply to recover CR after battles where it takes no damage, and the Onslaught is made to take damage. If you ever take it into a fight where it will sustain significant damage, it's going to require rather more supply then it can carry with any safety to repair.

So the ship you spent several hours building up to can fight one battle vs something that can't remotely threaten it, then retreat to a base to unload spoils in order to keep profitable. Unless you are utterly married to single-ship as a concept, it simply makes more sense to bring along cargo ships to carry spoils, tugs to haul the battleship to the fight.. and frigates, to catch the foes that will inevitability flee. In return, you get a rare fun battle where the Onslught cracks a dangerous fleet, then lots of battles that are watching your chase squadrons catch staggers.

Going one ship is leaving money on the table. That isn't an awful thing, going Captian Harlock doesn't have to be a practical option.

[Alex]

So the ship you spent several hours building up to can fight one battle vs something that can't remotely threaten it, then retreat to a base to unload spoils in order to keep profitable. Unless you are utterly married to single-ship as a concept, it simply makes more sense to bring along cargo ships to carry spoils, tugs to haul the battleship to the fight.. and frigates, to catch the foes that will inevitability flee. In return, you get a rare fun battle where the Onslught cracks a dangerous fleet, then lots of battles that are watching your chase squadrons catch staggers.

Going one ship is leaving money on the table. That isn't an awful thing, going Captian Harlock doesn't have to be a practical option.

Yeah, I pretty much agree. It's just almost entirely not CR-related, you know? Even the bulk of the supply cost is for repairs. In fact, if you're going one battle -> station to unload the spoils, CR is largely out of the picture unless your engagements aren't cost-efficient overall. Not a fan of "dash to the station" as a gameplay component, though; will have to do something about it.

If you ever take it into a fight where it will sustain significant damage, it's going to require rather more supply then it can carry with any safety to repair.

That, I think makes sense as the default state of affairs - unless you've invested heavily into the appropriate skills, perhaps.

[Gothars]

*mumblemumble* it's capital ship *mumblemumble*

[Alex]

Not if it's the home of the government of your space-based society.

... ok, I'll stop.

[Gothars]

Not if it's the home of the government of your space-based society.

... ok, I'll stop.

You'd better, because that would still be a capital-ship, that other thing only holds the legislature, haHA! But that's irrelevant, because I have now stopped anyone from ever using that cursed word again on this forum! Try it! Good night! I will have one!

[Joush]

If you ever take it into a fight where it will sustain significant damage, it's going to require rather more supply then it can carry with any safety to repair.

That, I think makes sense as the default state of affairs - unless you've invested heavily into the appropriate skills, perhaps.

So ships are really supposed to be able to make no significant repairs from internal resources? I see what you mean, but it is a poor choice to have ships unable to be self sufficient.

[Alex]

So ships are really supposed to be able to make no significant repairs from internal resources? I see what you mean, but it is a poor choice to have ships unable to be self sufficient.

Well, it really depends. I think a lone ship that's not specifically made for long solo cruises or exploration should have real trouble effecting full repairs for critical damage while on the field. I see the Onslaught as more of a ship meant as a centerpiece for larger task forces. A character tailored for soloing/exploration might still make it work, though.

Something like an Apogee, a Venture, or an Odyssey, on the other hand, is made for more self-sufficiency. This is another axis that can be used to differentiate ships - some ships are made for joint actions, and some are made to go it alone.

[Megas]

Something like an Apogee, a Venture, or an Odyssey, on the other hand, is made for more self-sufficiency. This is another axis that can be used to differentiate ships - some ships are made for joint actions, and some are made to go it alone.

That is one reason why I liked those ships.  They trade some combat power to do everything well.  As of 0.6, the Odyssey fails at self-sufficiency.  I need an Altas or several smaller dedicated freighters to haul enough supplies I get from battle to repair and recover CR for those ships.  The only thing the Odyssey does is let me to use one Altas instead of two when I salvage loot from a single defense fleet battle or multiple smaller battles.

[Sealgaire]

I think the version of .6 I downloaded must be broken, because my main character flies around with a fleet composed entirely of high tech frigates and I accumulate probably 7 or 8 times more supplies than I use, while according to many in this thread I should be broke and drifting around the system in a bunch of CR depleted ships.

Pretty much every fleet composition I've tried has raked in absurd amounts of supplies. All fighters and carriers, a balanced mix of mid tech ships, and a fleet of low tech destroyers and cruisers with an Onslaught flagship fleet. With each of these, I can deploy the whole fleet in every engagement and still come out way ahead. My main criticism of the CR system is that it hasn't really forced me to change my playstyle at all from .54a, and if anything has made the game easier with money coming in way too fast.

What am I doing so right that so many of you aren't? My only real strategy is going after the biggest fleets I can catch and destroy without losing ships. That's it. Works every time in iron mode even.

[Histidine]

>COMBAT CONSUMES MORE SUPPLIES THAN YOU MAKE

Yes it does, if you play a certain style. If you play a huge fleet taking on equally big fleets and use that as your point then i simply won't listen to you making your point based on that until you experience the fact that small fleets actually get hit by this, and pretty hard.

Nobody else seems to be getting this for running a small fleet specifically. Please specify the precise nature of the fleet, its opponents, and any other factors that may affect results.

_{EDIT: less grumpy tone}

[Thaago]

I think the version of .6 I downloaded must be broken, because my main character flies around with a fleet composed entirely of high tech frigates and I accumulate probably 7 or 8 times more supplies than I use, while according to many in this thread I should be broke and drifting around the system in a bunch of CR depleted ships.

Pretty much every fleet composition I've tried has raked in absurd amounts of supplies. All fighters and carriers, a balanced mix of mid tech ships, and a fleet of low tech destroyers and cruisers with an Onslaught flagship fleet. With each of these, I can deploy the whole fleet in every engagement and still come out way ahead. My main criticism of the CR system is that it hasn't really forced me to change my playstyle at all from .54a, and if anything has made the game easier with money coming in way too fast.

What am I doing so right that so many of you aren't? My only real strategy is going after the biggest fleets I can catch and destroy without losing ships. That's it. Works every time in iron mode even.

Yeah pretty much, but don't tell anyone!!!

[PCCL]

 As of 0.6, the Odyssey fails at self-sufficiency.

This, she costs more to deploy than a Conquest (A joint deployment ship I would think). I do believe she should buffed in self sufficiency.

[Sproginator]

Gentlefolk, shall we calm down?

There's no need for such heated debate haha,

Reminds me off South Park where they go RABLRABLRABLRABLRABL in courts haha.

Please don't forget, this is a game. Nothing less. You have gained friends here (If not, HEY! Welcome and come hang out sometime on steam!)

I understand people's frustrations, but it is, kind off, petty.

Let's try not to jump ahead and be all heated.

Now, I myself have changed the last month due to personal problems and trying to get things settled in work.

In doing so, I told a poster to pretty much leave, and that he was not wanted here.

Why am I posting this you ask?

Because it's important to note what we lose when we act like children, he refuses to come back now, and it's because of all the heated topics and jumping the gun we have started doing.

We miss the old community? How it was cheerful? Then let's get a solution instead of adding to the problem. I for one will NEVER EVER speak to someone so horribly online anymore, because when I read back some of the comments either I or other community members have made, I feel bloody ashamed.

Let's all just calm down and show the newer members that we ARE here for FUN! And that they are always welcome to raise a point and topical discussion!

Sorry for the long post and, if found off topic, please send me a pm and I can edit and move it to a topic