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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Combat Readyness isn't fun..  (Read 151265 times)

hadesian

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #285 on: September 24, 2013, 12:37:37 PM »

So, me and Upgradecap are FIRMLY in opposition of combat readiness.

And guess what? Here is a 41 minute video of us explaining why.
Note: Bad language. We were furious.
http://youtu.be/GV56nlWEFSk

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Debido

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #286 on: September 24, 2013, 12:45:46 PM »

So, me and Upgradecap are FIRMLY in opposition of combat readiness.

And guess what? Here is a 41 minute video of us explaining why.
Note: Bad language. We were furious.
http://youtu.be/GV56nlWEFSk



Thank you for taking the time to give a detailed response in video format. As I may not have the time to go through the entire 41 minutes, I would appreciate it if you could create a dot-point summary of your findings, and if you have constructive criticism to improve upon the game, highlight those as well.

Although I can't speak for Alex, I'm sure he would appreciate a condensed dot-point text based feedback as well.

Also what are your thoughts on the solutions/improvements to CR that have been proposed so far?
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Mattk50

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #287 on: September 24, 2013, 12:57:58 PM »

The past 7 pages of the thread have been people restating things that were successfully argued against early in the thread. This is a prime example of people seeing a problem but not knowing what it is or how to fix it, then going on and on about it. You are all horrible. Wait for mining/trading/etc.

By the way, xareh, upgradecap. Write a post(s) next time. Its a better format for discussion. I'll respond anyway:
"ships that do nothing on the battlefield still cost to deploy"
 -Don't deploy ships you don't need. This is the new method to reward the player for fighting balanced fights.

"i cant tell what my hull vs my combat readiness is"
 -Theres a hull bar, and a CR bar.

"simulates nothing of a realistic crew"
 -You apparently know nothing of REAL ships and how resource hungry they are. And yes, deploying into combat, cancelling airlifted supply deliveries, putting everyone onto stations, is going to cost more than taking a scenic ride around the pacific

"theres no way for me as a player to connect to the artificial percentage value!"
-ok lol

"high tech ships should be amazing if they cost more supplies to maintain"
 -They take little to no repairable damage in combat because they primarily use shields, and additionally are faster both on the map and on the battlefield. They are the ultimate kiters and have unlimited ammo. I think they are pretty balanced, and if not, when there's more important stuff to fight over you will be able to afford the "better" high tech stuff.

"COMBAT CONSUMES MORE SUPPLIES THAN YOU MAKE"
-no it doesn't. Im done listening to this.
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Thaago

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #288 on: September 24, 2013, 01:01:26 PM »

Its fine that thats your opinion but... I'm not sure if anyone is going to listen to a 40 minute rant instead of a bulleted list :P Especially because its not scripted, so there is a lot of 'dead air' where you aren't really saying anything.

I listened for about 10 minutes - you bring up some good points that have already been mentioned, but also a lot of inaccuracies. I just got to the point where you are talking about how frigates were sledgehammered and... well its just not true. The speed increase is a MASSIVE buff and combats rarely last more than a few minutes for frigates. Heck, you can take on an entire pirate carrier fleet in 3 minutes.

Do I think that CR needs tweaking? Yes. But I think an hour or so is all that you need to get used to the new system. Once you get used to what the new limiting factors are, its much easier to build up a fleet now than it was before because of the immense amounts of supplies and credits every single combat gets you.
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ValkyriaL

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #289 on: September 24, 2013, 01:04:33 PM »

Quote
"COMBAT CONSUMES MORE SUPPLIES THAN YOU MAKE"

Yet i managed to fill an entire page of supplies in the heg station, earning several million credits in the process, and fuel my megafleet with it for all eternity.

Long live Low tech!
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Joush

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #290 on: September 24, 2013, 01:04:38 PM »

I actually agree that the high price of supplies at the moment is a problem - it makes the game both too hard and too easy. If you are a new player, the high cost of supplies sinks you. If you are an experienced player, the high cost of supplies makes it waaaaaay too easy to get money. Enemies dropping less supplies is a possible solution to the latter, muahahahah.

It wouldn't take much at all in reduced supply drops from salvage to make it very, very difficult to operate any fleet profitability, owing to the relationship of supplies to repairs and recovery. A fleet that takes heavy damage but wins a mid-sized fleet engagement can consume better then five hundred supply recovering damage and CR. Lowering supply drops would make it even less profitable to indulge in any engagements where very easy victory is a forgone conclusion.
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hadesian

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #291 on: September 24, 2013, 01:05:44 PM »

SNIP You are all horrible. SNIP

Sounds to me like you listened to a grand total of about ten minutes. If you'd listened to the end to - you'd know I'm not arguing for my sake! I'm done with SS! I don't care! I just want the game which in my opinion is better back, and I want to defend that stance.

Please, everyone - you have to listen to the whole thing. I am too busy to give you forty minutes in bullet points. What I have said there is also far better conveyed than I can in text.
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Mattk50

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #292 on: September 24, 2013, 01:13:34 PM »

SNIP You are all horrible. SNIP

Sounds to me like you listened to a grand total of about ten minutes. If you'd listened to the end to - you'd know I'm not arguing for my sake! I'm done with SS! I don't care! I just want the game which in my opinion is better back, and I want to defend that stance.

Please, everyone - you have to listen to the whole thing. I am too busy to give you forty minutes in bullet points. What I have said there is also far better conveyed than I can in text.

I did, I said where i stopped listening. Arent you clever noticing. Im not listening to 40 minutes of you folks making poor arguments for your sake... there's always playing the last version forever, by the way. Its hilarious that apparently you are too busy to just write a post that will be much faster for people to read but apparently you have an hour to record. If the floundering i heard in that video is better conveyed than a well written post then you dont seem to have an argument worth making.
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Joush

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #293 on: September 24, 2013, 01:14:41 PM »

Quote
"COMBAT CONSUMES MORE SUPPLIES THAN YOU MAKE"

Yet i managed to fill an entire page of supplies in the heg station, earning several million credits in the process, and fuel my megafleet with it for all eternity.

Long live Low tech!

Well yes, it's currently very easy to exploit the fact that you can, at no risk, hunt slower and weaker fleets. It's part of the weirdly inverted difficulty curve, where the first half hour is quite challenging then you can quite successfully play the game (if XP, credits and a more powerful fleet is the goal) without ever having to fight a battle yourself.
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ValkyriaL

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #294 on: September 24, 2013, 01:15:28 PM »

You did make some good points xar, i stopped listening to cap because it was more like he was crying about it and his inability to adapt.

still, the new mechanic was introduced not even a week ago, give Alex some time to work it out. and TBH, if I and a lot of other have managed to adapt to it, and improved our strategies even further, without being hurt in any significant way. so can you two. :-\

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hadesian

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #295 on: September 24, 2013, 01:17:56 PM »

SNIP You are all horrible. SNIP

Sounds to me like you listened to a grand total of about ten minutes. If you'd listened to the end to - you'd know I'm not arguing for my sake! I'm done with SS! I don't care! I just want the game which in my opinion is better back, and I want to defend that stance.

Please, everyone - you have to listen to the whole thing. I am too busy to give you forty minutes in bullet points. What I have said there is also far better conveyed than I can in text.

I did, I said where i stopped listening. Arent you clever noticing. Im not listening to 40 minutes of you folks making poor arguments for your sake... there's always playing the last version forever, by the way. Its hilarious that apparently you are too busy to just write a post that will be much faster for people to read but apparently you have an hour to record. If the floundering i heard in that video is better conveyed than a well written post then you dont seem to have an argument worth making.
Why are you being so aggressive? What happened to this community in the time I've been gone?
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ValkyriaL

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #296 on: September 24, 2013, 01:19:00 PM »

Quote
"COMBAT CONSUMES MORE SUPPLIES THAN YOU MAKE"

Yet i managed to fill an entire page of supplies in the heg station, earning several million credits in the process, and fuel my megafleet with it for all eternity.

Long live Low tech!

Well yes, it's currently very easy to exploit the fact that you can, at no risk, hunt slower and weaker fleets. It's part of the weirdly inverted difficulty curve, where the first half hour is quite challenging then you can quite successfully play the game (if XP, credits and a more powerful fleet is the goal) without ever having to fight a battle yourself.

how is it an exploit to hunt smaller fleets? and why do you imply i dont fight anything myself?
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Thaago

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #297 on: September 24, 2013, 01:23:36 PM »

Woah folks!! Lets just take a deep breath here. No need to get nasty.



Well, you have to understand: because its recorded and not written, we can't actually reply to you in detail without transcribing the relevant sections. And because you guys didn't do it scripted, the information content is very low - in the first 10 minutes there are maybe 4 points raised. So its not a good use of our time to listen:-\


...
Why are you being so aggressive? What happened to this community in the time I've been gone?


The community is the same. Tempers have just been running a little high in threads discussing CR. And saying you are FIRMLY against it and posting a rant after a bunch of pages of constructive suggestions doesn't help... All this said, I think we should all cool down.
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Joush

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #298 on: September 24, 2013, 01:24:49 PM »



how is it an exploit to hunt smaller fleets? and why do you imply i dont fight anything myself?

Sorry, not my intention to imply anything about your play style. My point was that yes, it's easy to make money, but I'm not sure I'd call it fun. It's hardly an exploit, or cheating, when this is the apparent intention of the developers, it's just a bad choice from a game design standpoint to discourage any sort of risk or dramatic combat.

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Upgradecap

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #299 on: September 24, 2013, 01:26:33 PM »

@Thaago

Right, so, the ship balance being sledgehammered.

Honestly, it kinda has been. Now, i know this is entirely dependant on how you fly your fleet, but.... Really, if you're flying all-frigate and think that's fun (which i find myself doing more often than not), it really shows to me that that's the case. The hyperion has been sledgehammered into place. Do i think that's good? Yes, yes i do because the hyperion was in need of that. The rest of the frigates suffered the same drawbacks because of the frigate-wide CR application. Did they need that? No, not at all. Well, that's imo, but it really was detrimental to my way of play, and that's really something a game never should do - a game shouldn't really force you to stick to one way of play.



>COMBAT CONSUMES MORE SUPPLIES THAN YOU MAKE

Yes it does, if you play a certain style. If you play a huge fleet taking on equally big fleets and use that as your point then i simply won't listen to you making your point based on that until you experience the fact that small fleets actually get hit by this, and pretty hard. Right now, there's no way to make money other than combat, and i've made this point already in the video.


>You are horrible for discussing this, wait for x feature

Now sure, you could make points about this not being balanced for this version of the game, but if you're going to make the game unplayable for x months until x feature is made, then why should i even bother playing the game if i can't make any progress with my playstyle? Seems like an exercise in futility, if anything.



PREPOST EDIT

>Me crying about my inability to adept


Good job trying to wipe my points off valkyrial. Good job reminding me why i hated you.

Look, if you're going to resort to ad hominem, do it right.



>ADAPT OR DIE

Okay, so i'm supposed to suck up bad mechanics and stop crying because starsector is the greatest game ever? Okay, great to know that's how you feel.

Too bad i don't need to give a damn about what you feel, and you're also free to ignore all the facts that i've actually adapted but can't be arsed to waste futile time on a stupid mechanic when i can have more fun elsewhere.

Cause that is what games are all about, fun, right?




ANOTHER PREPOST EDIT

>Community being the same


Debatable point, really. I mean, for all the time i've been here, it's really changed towards a way more passive-aggressive attitude than... ever before, really.
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