Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 ... 15 16 [17] 18 19 ... 34

Author Topic: Combat Readyness isn't fun..  (Read 151192 times)

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #240 on: September 24, 2013, 07:09:35 AM »

Quote
I don't see a problem with this, seeing as in the final game you aren't supposed to see capital ships very often at all.
The problem now is speed is key, and capital ships are too slow and consume too much to be worth using except for the rare system defense fleet battle.  In previous versions, more fleet compositions were effective.  Frigate swarms, destroyer swarms, cruiser squads, lone battleship, carrier groups.  Now, it is just frigate swarms for most battles.
Logged

Histidine

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4661
    • View Profile
    • GitHub profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #241 on: September 24, 2013, 07:13:33 AM »

I chase after every last fleet that comes my way because I need the XP.  Otherwise, my soft cap would be in the upper 20's or low 30's.  The XP adds up.
I suspect that in the time it takes you to run down three small fleets, you could kill one large fleet and get the same or more XP.

Using an H-bomb to kill a rabbit is gloriously fun.  CR discourages this - not fun.
Quote
It's also enormously expensive. CR simulates this.
It does, and it is a fun killer as it stands.
If you really find the equivalent of nuking a rabbit that fun, then mod Starsector accordingly (or just play missions), or play a different game that's designed from the ground up for this purpose (I found that the Elephantbird levels in Atom Zombie Smasher performed the rabbit-nuking function quite well - but even AZS lets you do it only a few times per playthrough; I'm sure someone can think of a better example). Otherwise, once the novelty wears off, the complaint that the game treats dropping H-bombs on small, defenseless herbivores as unproductive (like pretty much every other game, as Gothars noted) is going to sound really, really silly.
Logged

Fireball14

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #242 on: September 24, 2013, 07:15:56 AM »

...its really not so strange a concept as you want to make it seem. In every shooter, if I use the rocket launcher to kill a single grunt I'm playing bad and the game punishes me. In every strategy game, if I use the orbital strike to kill a single scout I'm playing bad and the game punishes me.
I don't see people complaining that they can't use rocket launchers and nukes all the time in those games, though.

Exceptions are deliberately silly games, but obviously Sector is not one of those.
Again wrong type of game...

Sandbox games meant to have progression. Lets look at greatest sandbox game for example: Minecraft
 
You start ur life in a hole in ground, and you slowly build up a castle made of diamond blocks and have diamond sword and armor. Yeah sure if you want to use them you will have to pay a cost of new equipment eventually but in the end that cost is so low you don't even see it, so you use them anyway even for killing spiders, and by killing them with one blow and not five like with wood sword, you see your progression = fun.
 
Lets get another sandbox example (just to show you its not only game) lets say GTA:
You start with a gun and start earning your money to get rocket launcher and than you start mayhem, and yes you soon will be out of rockets but you did have a lots of fun cos you can use it without thinking where to get more rockets.
 
I agree that in liner or skirmish games use of big guns is just plain stupid but in campaign mode we have a sandbox game and it have to have balance enabling player to play any style they want without having lots of pain. Right now game can only be played "smart".
Logged

Andy H.K.

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #243 on: September 24, 2013, 07:19:22 AM »

Quote
I don't see a problem with this, seeing as in the final game you aren't supposed to see capital ships very often at all.
The problem now is speed is key, and capital ships are too slow and consume too much to be worth using except for the rare system defense fleet battle.  In previous versions, more fleet compositions were effective.  Frigate swarms, destroyer swarms, cruiser squads, lone battleship, carrier groups.  Now, it is just frigate swarms for most battles.
Then I suppose it's a matter of metagame, not of CR, or of the game itself. Like you said, capital are good when you need to fight against SDF, and I agree that in such fight the cost is justifiable.... there are uses for everything..... so I'll say use the right tool for the right job.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #244 on: September 24, 2013, 07:28:04 AM »

Quote
I suspect that in the time it takes you to run down three small fleets, you could kill one large fleet and get the same or more XP.
I kill those too.  If I do not, my soft cap would be lower than the upper 30's, just as if I ignore the numerous small fleets.  Thing is, frigate swarms are effective against large fleets too, if they are not system defense fleet strength.  Even then, it is possible for frigate swarms to kill defense fleets with minimal casualties, but that is when you should bring out the big ships.  Problem is the defense fleets are rare.  By the time another defense fleet spawns, I can clear the system of pirates and other riff-raff once or twice with frigate swarms and gain a nice chuck of XP and loot.

Quote
If you really find the equivalent of nuking a rabbit that fun, then mod Starsector accordingly (or just play missions)
Missions are not fun.  No skills/perks makes most ships a pain to use.

Previous versions let us overkill stuff no problem.  As long as Starsector is unfinished, I see no reason I should not give feedback if the game gets worse as it develops.  Besides, I did not get Starsector to mod the game to fix problems.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #245 on: September 24, 2013, 07:31:42 AM »

Fireball14:  How about another example to support your case - Star Control 2.
Logged

liq3

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 37
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #246 on: September 24, 2013, 07:33:14 AM »

PS. Also I have to wonder... Can you really stop an Onslaught or three with a fleet of frigates? (And I mean a realistic fleet, not 10 hyperions).
One Onslaught, no problem.  You may lose a ship due to AI stupidity.  Three, doable, but casualties are almost a given.  This is a fight where capitals shine, but they are rare.  Fighting one Paragon is nasty for frigate swarms, probably on par with two Onslaughts.
[/quote]Yep, I tested an onslaught vs 8 tempest and it got wrecked. It's lack of manoeuvrability kills it. Now an Onslaught with a fleet to defend it from frigates... :/

[/quote]
Sandbox games meant to have progression. Lets look at greatest sandbox game for example: Minecraft  
[/quote]I disagree. GTA is a good example. It doesn't have much in the way of progression (compared to Minecraft) and yet is an amazing sandbox game. Also, Minecraft isn't that good. It masks it's flaws with it's progression system.

Also, Starsector is a STRATEGY game. GTA and Minecraft aren't.


I'm using a single cruiser to take on the heavier pirate fleets. My deployable fleet is 2 thunders, a mining pod squad, a piranha squad, a tempest, 2 condors, a Hammerhead and a Dominator. The dominator lets me take out the pirate fleets with their own dominaters or numerous destroyers with ease. I also have support ships of 3 Oxs and 2 freighters. I'm absolutely rolling in cash (got 300k) and supplies.

The destructor power of a Dominator just can't be matched by puny frigates. Admittedly, my Dominator is extremely weak to fighters and frigates, which is why I have my own to defend it. If CR wasn't in, I might have just spammed tempest again, since without CR they are the best ship in the game hands down.



Logged

Histidine

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4661
    • View Profile
    • GitHub profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #247 on: September 24, 2013, 07:36:01 AM »

...its really not so strange a concept as you want to make it seem. In every shooter, if I use the rocket launcher to kill a single grunt I'm playing bad and the game punishes me. In every strategy game, if I use the orbital strike to kill a single scout I'm playing bad and the game punishes me.
I don't see people complaining that they can't use rocket launchers and nukes all the time in those games, though.

Exceptions are deliberately silly games, but obviously Sector is not one of those.
Again wrong type of game...

Sandbox games meant to have progression.
And linear games aren't meant to have progression? o_O

Quote
I agree that in liner or skirmish games use of big guns is just plain stupid but in campaign mode we have a sandbox game and it have to have balance enabling player to play any style they want without having lots of pain. Right now game can only be played "smart".
There's nothing actually preventing you from smashing little pirate fleets with your double capital fleet (aside from the fact that they run away, but that has nothing to do with CR), or throwing mass Lashers against the Hegemony SDF. It's wasteful, but that just means you have to spend more time collecting rockets mining diamond saving credits/supplies.

Speaking of sandbox games, a counterexample: SimCity is probably the oldest sandbox game there is; try doing random things (like building no industry or no roads, or building your city in huge concentric rings) and see whether the game rewards you for it*. (Note again however that it doesn't say you can't do it, it just shakes its head and smacks you for doing so.)

*Simcity 5 doesn't count; it's not a game, it's a disgrace!

Besides, I did not get Starsector to mod the game to fix problems.
My initial response was "you're the only one who thinks it ("it" being the the lack of a gameplay style as described by the "H-bomb on rabbit" line) is a problem," but even that doesn't adequately describe the nature of the contention. The way I see it, this "problem" is akin to complaining that you have to worry about dysentery and other nasty diseases in Oregon Trail, or that you have to carefully monitor your health and ammunition in the older Resident Evil games.

...No, it goes further than that. It's akin to complaining that there's (almost) no stealth elements (or, for that matter, rabbit-nuking equivalents) in Call of Duty!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 07:40:40 AM by Histidine »
Logged

BillyRueben

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1406
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #248 on: September 24, 2013, 07:47:12 AM »

As long as Starsector is unfinished, I see no reason I should not give feedback if the game gets worse as it develops.

And now I'm done arguing. If you have a problem with the game getting harder as it develops (since there are now some real limits you must play within), there isn't any way to appease you, since there are probably only going to be more limitations added in in the future. Just mod in your ultra doom capital ship and stomp the hell out of those pirate fleets.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #249 on: September 24, 2013, 07:49:34 AM »

Quote
...No, it goes further than that. It's akin to complaining that there's (almost) no stealth elements (or, for that matter, rabbit-nuking equivalents) in Call of Duty!
In this case, it is a fun element that existed in a previous version taken away, and I want it back before the game gets finished.  I want a wider variety of effective fleet compositions, not frigate swarms for 95% for all battles.
Logged

Thaago

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 7173
  • Harpoon Affectionado
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #250 on: September 24, 2013, 08:01:56 AM »

You know, most people don't play with frigate swarms. You could just... not... if you don't want to. To be honest I don't even think frigate swarms are very effective. Its true that capital ships are not all that valuable in pursuit scenarios. My advice: fight bigger fleets so they don't run. No big enough fleet around? Play a mod with boss fleets.


The obvious solution to capital ships being unloved is to make them more powerful. A lot more :D. I would love for the sight of a single Onslaught to give me chills as it tears straight through my ships like an unstoppable juggernaut. Or a Paragon with its impenetrable shield grinding me to oblivion. I'm only kidding a little bit here.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #251 on: September 24, 2013, 08:17:33 AM »

Quote
You could just... not... if you don't want to. To be honest I don't even think frigate swarms are very effective.
I so wish it was that simple.  I tried various combinations, and in the end, I found frigate swarms the best at everything except the rare system fleet battle.  Destroyers aside from carriers and freighters do not offer anything two frigates cannot, and they slow down your fleet.  Cruisers are like mini-capitals, they are slow and eat supplies, but they lack the raw power of a true capital.

Quote
Its true that capital ships are not all that valuable in pursuit scenarios. My advice: fight bigger fleets so they don't run.
By late game, the only fleets big enough not to run are system defense fleets and supply fleets.  Even then, they hold back ships and you need to chase down the survivors if you want the max XP and loot.

Quote
The obvious solution to capital ships being unloved is to make them more powerful.
They are powerful enough.  They could be a bit less taxing on logistics (or have default logistics at 25 or 30 instead or 20.)  The best solution I can think of is make the retreat border of the first battle at the opposing side so that big ships have a chance to kill little ships.  In follow-up battles, pursuit can work as it is.
Logged

PCCL

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • still gunnyfreak
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #252 on: September 24, 2013, 08:38:30 AM »

I think as is CR wise low tech ships are a lot better for what campaign does (ie repeatedly chasing down other fleets for money). Which kinda makes sense - low tech ships are designed for long term repeated engagements while high techs are meant for precision strikes

note how infrequently tri tach engage in head on battle against the hegemony, the closest they got was the battle at coral nebula, unless you count the off screen battle over hasteaus ( which resulted in forlorn hope... poor them )
Logged
mmm.... tartiflette

Cycerin

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
  • beyond the infinite void
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #253 on: September 24, 2013, 08:44:49 AM »

Im pretty sure there will be ways in the future in which the enemy will HAVE to fight you (for instance, by defending or attacking a planet) and you WILL be wanting to use overwhelming force. In which case, having a slow fleet with capital ships and their support, will be no problem. Do you think Starsector is going to be a game about chasing Buffalo IIs forever?

Asking for a core game mechanic to be neutered just because the game is in a transitory phase is pretty meaningless, and you are in fact playing an alpha. Until the game fleshes out, feel free to use any spreadsheet editing program to mod CR out of the picture entirely/ cut supply costs across the board/ change the way AI responds to your fleet. If it's that important, then it shouldn't be a big effort.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 08:47:28 AM by Cycerin »
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12117
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #254 on: September 24, 2013, 08:46:40 AM »

Quote
I think as is CR wise low tech ships are a lot better for what campaign does (ie repeatedly chasing down other fleets for money). Which kinda makes sense - low tech ships are designed for long term repeated engagements while high techs are meant for precision strikes
Indeed, once the player can get enough of the best ballistics, Lasher swarms are murderous.  They can kite, chew through shields and break things.

Quote
Do you think Starsector is going to be a game about chasing Buffalo IIs forever?
I cannot give feedback for Starsector of the future, only what it is, and it is about chasing everything that moves.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 15 16 [17] 18 19 ... 34