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Author Topic: Combat Readyness isn't fun..  (Read 151211 times)

liq3

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #225 on: September 24, 2013, 06:04:20 AM »

@The argument that CR is bad because everyone is using cheap ships... Think of this analogy: You don't use a nuke to squash an ant, just like don't you use an Onslaught to squash weak pirate fleet.
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #226 on: September 24, 2013, 06:21:39 AM »

I finally remembered what the CR system reminds me of: The magic system in the Infinity Engine games (Baldurs Gate etc.). There you could only use a limited number of spells of each level on a day, the higher the level the fewer spells of it you could use. That meant you really had to decide how much of a thread each enemy was, is a Magic Missile enough or does this one warrant a Meteor Swarm? Then for boss creatures like a dragon you'd rest before the fight and have all you spells at the ready, which made you feel incredible powerful and prepared. It was a great system.


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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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Fireball14

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #227 on: September 24, 2013, 06:25:18 AM »

@The argument that CR is bad because everyone is using cheap ships... Think of this analogy: You don't use a nuke to squash an ant, just like don't you use an Onslaught to squash weak pirate fleet.
Lets rephrased it  - "don't use an Onslaught" cos most battles can be won with armada of midtech cheap ships, and in the end you even get less supply drain. So yeh...fun system. :-\

I finally remembered what the CR system reminds me of: The magic system in the Infinity Engine games (Baldurs Gate etc.). There you could only use a limited number of spells of each level on a day, the higher the level the fewer spells of it you could use. That meant you really had to decide how much of a thread each enemy was, is a Magic Missile enough or does this one warrant a Meteor Swarm? Then for boss creatures like a dragon you'd rest before the fight and have all you spells at the ready, which made you feel incredible powerful and prepared. It was a great system.
And that was scripted liner RPG.

And we have sandbox strategy/arcade game. If you want there is a great video from lead gamedev of blizzard about why dose same game system in similar games usely dont work.

Edit:
Here it is.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 06:34:06 AM by Fireball14 »
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Debido

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #228 on: September 24, 2013, 06:34:53 AM »

@The argument that CR is bad because everyone is using cheap ships... Think of this analogy: You don't use a nuke to squash an ant, just like don't you use an Onslaught to squash weak pirate fleet.

Yes, but it's still fun to nuke an ant regardless. The argument goes far beyond even that analogy to deal with challenge over time, game progression, game achievement and some vessels genuinely having an advantage over others. The CR system is oversimplified and used as a means to globally average the effective damage output/combat effectiveness of all ships.

Combat is part of the 'game' system that let's you eventually get more and more loot, allowing you to grow your fleet and skills/XP. The way CR is implemented it pushes the player towards a fleet that is cost effective in the return on credits/supplies invested. At the moment a cheaper and faster fleet seems to be more cost effective, fights more often and over time yields a higher return on loot.

Also on the Nuke vs Ant, you may have seen this in the news recently :D

Spoiler
[close]
Spoiler
[close]

And why? Just cause!

Having said that (completely unrelated), if you're french and have a destroyer, puny pirate ships squash you. http://glossynews.com/top-stories/get-your-war-on/201003080345/french-destroyer-surrenders-to-somali-pirates/

My apologies in advance to any french whom I may have offended.


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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #229 on: September 24, 2013, 06:35:56 AM »

Quote
Lets rephrased it  - "don't use an Onslaught" cos most battles can be won with armada of midtech cheap ships, and in the end you even get less supply drain. So yeh...fun system.
This is why I use frigate swarms.  There are not enough tugs for more than one capital ship and, like Leadership, forcing player to get Navigation 10 just to catch things can delay a player's desired progression.  This is NOT a fun system.

I chase after every last fleet that comes my way because I need the XP.  Otherwise, my soft cap would be in the upper 20's or low 30's.  The XP adds up.
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Railgun

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #230 on: September 24, 2013, 06:36:33 AM »

@The argument that CR is bad because everyone is using cheap ships... Think of this analogy: You don't use a nuke to squash an ant, just like don't you use an Onslaught to squash weak pirate fleet.
Why not? Some battlecruisers were designed with the purpose of killing small ships very quickly with no losses.

Alex, I'm thinking that the problem with CR is twofold: first, we pay the same price no matter how long the engagement, and how much a ship contribute. 'Just being there' shouldn't cost 30% CR, this is really extreme. I understand that the drills and power cycles that come with being ready to fire and pursue the enemy (or evade it) should cost a flat amount of CR, but right now it is drastic.
And especially, most capital ship should be able to participate in several long engagements before really being weakened by combat unreadiness. They're command centers, have huge crews, lots of supplies and ammo, and redundant systems. They're built to be the center of a fleet.

I'm thinking that the best was to avoid the "frigate swarm is the best strategy" issue is the following:
-Have a reduced flat CR cost per engagement for every ship. Then have CR costs for actions (firing, using the ship in general) as described in the changelong for 0.6.1a.
-Have the CR costs be higher for smaller ship classes. Capitals and cruisers are built for endurance, while smaller ship classes are useful for support, scouting, etc.
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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #231 on: September 24, 2013, 06:42:21 AM »

Using an H-bomb to kill a rabbit is gloriously fun.  CR discourages this - not fun.
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #232 on: September 24, 2013, 06:42:39 AM »

On topic: In my experience both capital ships and swarms of smaller ships a totally viable. Regardless what you fly, you get so many supplies that you will be able to afford absolutely anything within the first hour anyway. You just have to choose the right targets. You don't even need freighters if you fight near stations. Past the frigate stage the game is pretty easy at the moment.


Edit:
Here it is.

Thanks, will have a look later.
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Railgun

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #233 on: September 24, 2013, 06:47:55 AM »

Capital ships aren't unviable, they're just not very useful. They're very expensive, they lack the flexibility of frigates, they cost vast amounts of resources and their advantages (staying power) aren't really exploitable in the current format, because speed is key (you want to avoid 'balanced' engagement because they imply losses, but it's hard to fight on your own terms with capitals)
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liq3

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #234 on: September 24, 2013, 06:51:53 AM »

Using an H-bomb to kill a rabbit is gloriously fun.  CR discourages this - not fun.
It's also enormously expensive. CR simulates this.

@The argument that CR is bad because everyone is using cheap ships... Think of this analogy: You don't use a nuke to squash an ant, just like don't you use an Onslaught to squash weak pirate fleet.
Why not? Some battlecruisers were designed with the purpose of killing small ships very quickly with no losses.

Alex, I'm thinking that the problem with CR is twofold: first, we pay the same price no matter how long the engagement, and how much a ship contribute. 'Just being there' shouldn't cost 30% CR, this is really extreme. I understand that the drills and power cycles that come with being ready to fire and pursue the enemy (or evade it) should cost a flat amount of CR, but right now it is drastic.
And especially, most capital ship should be able to participate in several long engagements before really being weakened by combat unreadiness. They're command centers, have huge crews, lots of supplies and ammo, and redundant systems. They're built to be the center of a fleet.
I have to agree with this. I feel this the big weakness of CR as it stands. It's rather silly that an Onslaught uses so much CR just for turning up to the fight (even if they don't fire a single round). I mean, they've probably been flying around away from port for weeks anyway. Putting on high alert ain't gonna change much.

Gameplay wise though... What's the alternative? Scaling CR? I mean I'd prefer this. Having deployment time, ammunition used, flux created, damage received, etc etc all count towards CR loss could be a better system I feel. The current upfront cost already does this pretty well though.  

And supply cost... Well it's just the cost of running a fleet. Don't go losing fights now.  ;)

PS. Also I have to wonder... Can you really stop an Onslaught or three with a fleet of frigates? (And I mean a realistic fleet, not 10 hyperions).
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Railgun

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #235 on: September 24, 2013, 06:55:18 AM »

Yes, you can, and it's a mission that I actually won.

With 5-6 tachyon frigates or 7-8 good hegemony ones, and good pilots, you can murder an Onslaught if you're careful. You need to properly fit them though.

As for 3 Onslaughts, you'd need a fuckton of frigates, but 3 onslaught is half a millon credits anyway.
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #236 on: September 24, 2013, 06:57:19 AM »

Using an H-bomb to kill a rabbit is gloriously fun.  CR discourages this - not fun.

Quote from: Fireball14 link=topic=6728.msg112689#msg112689
Lets rephrased it  - "don't use an Onslaught" cos most battles can be won with armada of midtech cheap ships, and in the end you even get less supply drain. So yeh...fun system. :-\

...its really not so strange a concept as you want to make it seem. In every shooter, if I use the rocket launcher to kill a single grunt I'm playing bad and the game punishes me. In every strategy game, if I use the orbital strike to kill a single scout I'm playing bad and the game punishes me.
I don't see people complaining that they can't use rocket launchers and nukes all the time in those games, though.

Exceptions are deliberately silly games, but obviously Sector is not one of those.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 07:09:39 AM by Gothars »
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BillyRueben

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #237 on: September 24, 2013, 06:57:43 AM »

Capital ships aren't unviable, they're just not very useful. They're very expensive, they lack the flexibility of frigates, they cost vast amounts of resources and their advantages (staying power) aren't really exploitable in the current format, because speed is key (you want to avoid 'balanced' engagement because they imply losses, but it's hard to fight on your own terms with capitals)

There really isn't much use for them right now, simply because there isn't an engagement that they are needed for. I'm 100% okay with that, because I always thought capital class ships were stupid boring to fly, since you really couldn't maneuver much and auto-fire was usually way more effective than attempting to manage that many weapons yourself in combat.

Frigates are great right now because it seems that 80% of the fights I get in to at the moment are escape scenarios, where speed is king. With the new escape mechanics, if you go up against a fleet you can't handle and attempt to escape, you can usually get away without even seeing anything bigger than a frigate from the enemy. On the other side of the coin, when the enemy admiral AI runs, he sends all of his fast ships away immediately, leaving the bigger ships as easy prey (which are the best for loot & experience anyway).
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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #238 on: September 24, 2013, 07:01:54 AM »

Quote
It's also enormously expensive. CR simulates this.
It does, and it is a fun killer as it stands.

Quote
PS. Also I have to wonder... Can you really stop an Onslaught or three with a fleet of frigates? (And I mean a realistic fleet, not 10 hyperions).
One Onslaught, no problem.  You may lose a ship due to AI stupidity.  Three, doable, but casualties are almost a given.  This is a fight where capitals shine, but they are rare.  Fighting one Paragon is nasty for frigate swarms, probably on par with two Onslaughts.

My frigate swarms consist of Hyperion flagship, a Tempest, one or two Afflictors, a few random Wolves and/or Brawlers, a Hound or two for pursuits, a Shuttle for boarding ships, and the rest Lashers.  For loot carrying, either an Atlas or two or three Gemini plus Oxen.

EDIT - Tri-Tachyon security detachment fleets with a Paragon in them are more dangerous than Hegemony system defense fleets for frigate swarms.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 07:11:08 AM by Megas »
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BillyRueben

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #239 on: September 24, 2013, 07:05:32 AM »

Quote
It's also enormously expensive. CR simulates this.
It does, and it is a fun killer as it stands.

Quote
PS. Also I have to wonder... Can you really stop an Onslaught or three with a fleet of frigates? (And I mean a realistic fleet, not 10 hyperions).
One Onslaught, no problem.  You may lose a ship due to AI stupidity.  Three, doable, but casualties are almost a given.  This is a fight where capitals shine, but they are rare.  Fighting one Paragon is nasty for frigate swarms, probably on par with two Onslaughts.

I don't see a problem with this, seeing as in the final game you aren't supposed to see capital ships very often at all.
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