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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Combat Readyness isn't fun..  (Read 151190 times)

Fireball14

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #180 on: September 22, 2013, 07:17:35 PM »

Thx, now i know how to diable CR  ;D Gonna make it more like a vanila only with out CR.
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Uomoz

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #181 on: September 22, 2013, 07:40:04 PM »

^

Quote from: Silver Silence
"i kno this game is beta but it sux i cant kil anything and CR is ***. one battle and all my money is gone wtf???!!eleven!1!"

EDIT:
I guess I should probably drop this in here. It will reduce all supply/day costs on ships to 1 supply/day and ships will only lose 1CR to be fielded in battle. 'Course, this makes ships immune to the being-worn-down-by-harrying tactic that a lot of people are employing to get easier kills but it will mean you can keep up to date with mods and the like.


HAHAHA man I can't believe you fell for that.
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Silver Silence

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #182 on: September 22, 2013, 08:06:57 PM »

Huh?
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joey4track

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #183 on: September 22, 2013, 10:30:20 PM »

I think CR is an awesome mechanic and a step in the right direction.
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Debido

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #184 on: September 23, 2013, 02:50:47 AM »

The intention of CR is to be a means of artificially constraining players maximum or fastest ability to build up resources over time ...

Well... the main goal of CR is to provide the player with a framework that lets them make more interesting decisions and leads to more interesting battles. If managed properly, I don't think it acts as a constraint on income, at least not compared to the previous release.

All in all, though, I generally agree both about the fleet growth curve and the difficulty curve. As I probably mentioned earlier, both of those need other mechanics in place (economy, trade, production, etc) before I can really delve into addressing them. I do want to do a few things to make it easier on new players in the short term, though.

Thanks Alex, can you expand on how CR is intended to provide 'more interesting decisions' and 'more interesting battles'? My experience has led to seeing flagships being deployed less often (late game), and at some point when your fleet is bigger than anyone else's they are only for show and never get deployed due to opponents fleeing. Although it's a bit irrelevant as the game is not near completion and only a fraction of the complete framework is in place.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on what you enjoy as an 'interesting' in-game decision, and how you would define an 'interesting' battle for you - personally for you as a gamer, perhaps even relating to similar games you've played. Do you draw inspiration from Solar Winds? Sean O'Conners Critical Mass? FTL? SPAZ? Starfight I-IV? Anacreon? Privateer? Starscape? Galactic CIV? Sins (Series)? Master of Orion? Starships Unlimited? etc. etc. to tedium adnorsium. What's your vision of gameplay mechanics that engages players, you have a high level blurb on the front page but I'd be interested to hear a bit more depth when you have some spare time.
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WK

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #185 on: September 23, 2013, 06:13:11 AM »

Despite most of "the game" still missing the CR already makes for some interesting scenarios and promotes a versatile fleet. For instance having low-tech frigates like lashers is nice for larger, multi-battle engagements and chases as they are cheap to deploy CR-wise. Also, the mechanic promotes minimizing your active combat forces leading to large risk - large gain (less ships, more dangerous fight - cheaper CR-recovery) vs low risk - low gain balancing.

At the moment the system is still unbalanced but I'm very interested to see how it works once more flesh is added around this mighty skeleton.

One thing that is broken at the moment is the harrying mechanic. The concept makes sense, but it just does not work at the moment. And unfortunately I have no clear ideas on how to fix it. Fast fleets should be able to pick their fights, but gameplay-wise it's a good thing that there is an option to escape. As the system is now it's not even only a matter if you want to pursue immediately or harry them to zero CR as in large battles with a lot of freighters & mothballed AI ships in the opposing fleet the AI does not deploy anything in the engagements so you have to harry-engage... until they have no combat ready ships left at which point you can pursue them and force them to field their ships. This is something that requires some attention at some point and something that will not be automatically fixed once more systems are implemented.
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xenoargh

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #186 on: September 23, 2013, 06:29:14 AM »

In terms of fixing Harry, I have an idea.

Sometimes, but not always, the AI should choose to Ambush the Harry attempt.  

This should lead to a shorter-than-usual battlefield size (i.e., less room to maneuver), and the Player's chosen Harry ships should be put into a battle vs. the fleet being Harried, with no reinforcements.

This would make Harry a fun and challenging experience, and if the AI was given the same choices, it might make for some really fun moments for the player, trying to get away from a superior fleet.
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ciago92

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #187 on: September 23, 2013, 07:58:04 AM »

In terms of fixing Harry, I have an idea.

Sometimes, but not always, the AI should choose to Ambush the Harry attempt.  

This should lead to a shorter-than-usual battlefield size (i.e., less room to maneuver), and the Player's chosen Harry ships should be put into a battle vs. the fleet being Harried, with no reinforcements.

This would make Harry a fun and challenging experience, and if the AI was given the same choices, it might make for some really fun moments for the player, trying to get away from a superior fleet.

That is brilliant! The question is how would you communicate that to the player? If the player is notified in the campaign combat screen then they'll send out everything. Otherwise now you're going to have to say something in combat or else everyone will flood the bug reports "I got a weird combat where I couldn't use reinforcements" "I harried someone and had a tiny map to fight on" kind of stuff
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #188 on: September 23, 2013, 08:13:11 AM »

This should lead to a shorter-than-usual battlefield size (i.e., less room to maneuver), and the Player's chosen Harry ships should be put into a battle vs. the fleet being Harried, with no reinforcements.

You dont get to choose ships for Harry, though. It would be most annyoing to have to choose ships for something that, in most cases, doesnt lead to anything but  a text message.
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liq3

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #189 on: September 23, 2013, 08:54:09 AM »

In terms of fixing Harry, I have an idea.

Sometimes, but not always, the AI should choose to Ambush the Harry attempt.  

This should lead to a shorter-than-usual battlefield size (i.e., less room to maneuver), and the Player's chosen Harry ships should be put into a battle vs. the fleet being Harried, with no reinforcements.

This would make Harry a fun and challenging experience, and if the AI was given the same choices, it might make for some really fun moments for the player, trying to get away from a superior fleet.
I don't like this idea at all. Why would I ever use harry if there's a chance it puts me into a bad fight? I only even get the option against weaker fleets anyway. I'm not gonna risk some of my ships getting in a fight that can destroy them (and even if a bad fight does happen, I may very well just retreat all my ships). The whole point of harrying is for the hunter to make the prey weaker, before it goes for the kill.

It also doesn't make sense from a realism perspective. There's no stealth in space, you can't ambush people.
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Alex

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #190 on: September 23, 2013, 09:08:03 AM »

Thanks Alex, can you expand on how CR is intended to provide 'more interesting decisions' and 'more interesting battles'? My experience has led to seeing flagships being deployed less often (late game), and at some point when your fleet is bigger than anyone else's they are only for show and never get deployed due to opponents fleeing. Although it's a bit irrelevant as the game is not near completion and only a fraction of the complete framework is in place.

In a nutshell, what I meant there is that battles are likely to have more even forces on each side, which makes them more challenging. Deploying an overwhelming force every time isn't "interesting". The "interesting decision" I mentioned is how much to deploy. You're measuring the cost of the deployment vs the payoff vs the risk if you don't deploy enough. Ideally, what you want to do - what's most economic - is to deploy the absolute least you can while ensuring you don't take significant losses. So, I really like that as a dynamic; with the optimal way to play also naturally being more challenging, and also letting the player challenge themselves to the degree they're comfortable with.
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WK

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #191 on: September 23, 2013, 09:09:50 AM »

This should lead to a shorter-than-usual battlefield size (i.e., less room to maneuver), and the Player's chosen Harry ships should be put into a battle vs. the fleet being Harried, with no reinforcements.

You dont get to choose ships for Harry, though. It would be most annyoing to have to choose ships for something that, in most cases, doesnt lead to anything but  a text message.

I agree. This suggestion has its merits but it would complicate the system. The problem for me isn't so much that you can harry a fleeing fleet, but the fact that at times there is nothing else you can do.

The harry->fly a bit->harry->fly-loop is not fun gameplay. It's a tricky thing since escaping needs to be an option, but not one without penalties. Artificial limits on how soon the attacker can re-engage also seems like a poor solution.
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xenoargh

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #192 on: September 23, 2013, 09:14:13 AM »

Quote
You dont get to choose ships for Harry, though. It would be most annyoing to have to choose ships for something that, in most cases, doesnt lead to anything but  a text message.
Choose once, then never have to bother again?

Never choose, but the Ambush scenario has other complications?

Never choose, but your fastest 3 ships / wings are chosen, with 1 player-pilotable ship guaranteed to be chosen?

Plenty of options here- it's just a bare-bones suggestion to fix the issue :)

Quote
There's no stealth in space, you can't ambush people.
There is "stealth in space" in the Starsector universe, otherwise there wouldn't be Fog of War and Phase Cloaks would never have been invented.  Anyhow, it's a game idea that would make Harry interesting, risky and (imo) fun.

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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #193 on: September 23, 2013, 10:50:49 AM »

Quote
In a nutshell, what I meant there is that battles are likely to have more even forces on each side, which makes them more challenging. Deploying an overwhelming force every time isn't "interesting". The "interesting decision" I mentioned is how much to deploy. You're measuring the cost of the deployment vs the payoff vs the risk if you don't deploy enough. Ideally, what you want to do - what's most economic - is to deploy the absolute least you can while ensuring you don't take significant losses. So, I really like that as a dynamic; with the optimal way to play also naturally being more challenging, and also letting the player challenge themselves to the degree they're comfortable with.
That makes sense only if you have enough Logistics to have a fleet, which requires Leadership.  Even a lone battleship needs 1 Leadership.  If player wants to ignore Leadership to have a super ship or two, he will probably play all ships because he does not have any other ships to use.  Sure, Leadership is probably the most powerful tree, due to Fleet Logistics skill, but I rather play a small squad of elite ships because ships are too weak and/or slow without bonuses from Combat and Technology.

Also, late game offers few choices.  Most fleets run away from you, and fast frigates dominate pursuits.  Bigger ships are only useful for rare system fleet battles.  Unless I plan to take out system fleets, I find myself ditching my Odyssey or anything bigger than a destroyer for frigate swarms.

Me, deploying everything is most interesting.  The bigger the battle, the better.  Granted, I have somewhat unusual taste of fun.  The one thing v0.6 did right is both sides can deploy most or all of their fleet at once.  Deploying a few ships here and there is asking for casualties.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 10:54:06 AM by Megas »
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Fireball14

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #194 on: September 23, 2013, 12:43:08 PM »

In a nutshell, what I meant there is that battles are likely to have more even forces on each side, which makes them more challenging. Deploying an overwhelming force every time isn't "interesting". The "interesting decision" I mentioned is how much to deploy. You're measuring the cost of the deployment vs the payoff vs the risk if you don't deploy enough. Ideally, what you want to do - what's most economic - is to deploy the absolute least you can while ensuring you don't take significant losses. So, I really like that as a dynamic; with the optimal way to play also naturally being more challenging, and also letting the player challenge themselves to the degree they're comfortable with.
I'm a  professional game designer, and here what i have to say.
I did a while ago this kind a approach for my Starcraft 2 map(i use sc2 as testing platform for my ideas), heres what i learned:
On start self balancing combat, where mobs and players always mostly equal in strength, was working very good. But as players gained more levels and powers this approach failed hard. Every one likes to see progression in game. From small ship to big fleet of battleships, from week guns to super powerful doomsday weapons. And in the end killing something you could not kill was ultimate reward. Right now CR limits player from using all his(her) fleet in battle and in the end player dosen see a progression. All he(she) see is a handful of frigates fighting all game. Plus burn system makes it impossible to play with big endgame ships, cos they so slow and you cant get in to combat.
 
Lets look at spaz for example:
You start with harmless ship, and you struggle bigger ships to get them for your self, and than you start carnage by killing every bigass ship that was a threat to you not long ago, ultimately you having lots of fun and almost no grief.
Now lets look at starsector now:
You start with harmless ship, and you struggle bigger ships. And when you finally get them your self you realize that you cant use them cos of supply cost + so little number of battles that they can fight(cos of low speed). So you get no fleet to fleet battles and even when you do find that bigass fleet that you cloud catch, you findout that you have to divide those hard earn ships to "play it strategically". So in the end you have few battles with almost no interest cos there are maybe 2-3 ships from your fleet.With gives you lots of pain and grief by managing those scares supply and even more pain waiting to restore CR.
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