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[Astyanax]

Have to say first: Thanks for continuing your work on Starsector, Alex!

I have sort of mixed impressions about CR.

On the one hand, I really like degrading readiness during combat (it's pretty fun when it's down to 2 ships, and both are struggling to maintain systems), but it's hard to actually "feel" what CR does in battle until systems start failing- the positive benefits don't seem readily apparent.

On the other hand, I dislike the fact that undamaged ships cannot be fielded in combat at all if CR is too low.  I wouldn't mind it as much if I could field those ships and suffer ungodly amounts of system failures.  If there's accompanying damage, perhaps certain systems in those areas are disabled/operate at reduced efficiency for the duration of the battle and cannot be improved upon until work is done outside of combat.

I don't really like it when I cannot even put up some semblance of a fight... even when the odds would otherwise suggest a favorable matchup.  The way I see it, an undamaged 1% CR Onslaught should still be able to fend off a 100% CR Shuttle, however ugly and messy it might be.

Perhaps my understanding of CR is flawed, however.

[WK]

After some initial reservations I have to say that I have really started to like the new CR mechanics. It works as a nice abstraction and even a simplification of a lot of complex factors that would be hard to implement directly. I still have my reservations about CR loss during fights, but I have become accustomed to that as well.

The way I see it CR is sort of campaign level "damage", overall maintenance level of the ship, and damage to non-combat-critical systems etc. Therefore I hope that the few suggestions about having CR being influenced during combat by combat events are not seriously considered. We have regular damage for that. Having two damage systems (on top of flux which is kind of temporary damage) would be redundant and would take away the elegant simplifaction that comes with the concept of CR.

But regardless of how you go about it, winning vs losing a battle is a binary condition, so there's always going to be a hard boundary there. Sometimes, you're just going to suffer a very close defeat, and it's going to sting, as close defeats do. It'll probably sting less if the reasons are crystal clear - at least you can learn from it and move on.

I have to disagree with this. Winning and losing are binary only in sports with strict rules. In war and in a long campaign the distinction between losing and winning is not as easily determined. Related to this, the strict limits on deploying 0% CR ships seems a bit artificial and it creates very odd situations as have been mentioned in the forums. It also creates situations where the player can potentially get a hold of very powerful ships (or their loot) by attacking fleets after very large fights. Seeing that there is a huge capital ship, no matter how crippled, should be a fearsome sight for couple frigates.

You could argue that CR of the death star in the return of the jedi would have been close to 0% but it was still pretty fearsome for a certain fish-faced admiral

[Histidine]

Considering how stiff the 0% CR penalties are, I think I can support letting ships deploy at empty CR as long as fielding the ship still costs supplies after the battle.

[Magician]

I know that there are alot being said by both sides and not only by these two sides. But in the end, if we think realistically, these long threads about new systems in v.0.6 are not very productive. I think that Histidine, despite that we disagreed on some things in several threads, proposed one of the best solutions in this thread http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6790.0 .

I think it is a best realistic and on spot solution which actually may be implemented by Alex, and which actually will solve most complaints until game gets more new features, balancing will be done, in other words until we will see final game in all it's beauty. I don't know future and maybe CR will be made even more difficult with final release, because it will make sense at that time. I don't know. But before that happens such solution may be the best choice for those with different opinions of CR. I can see that with some modding even -100% CR difficulty (zero CR after each battle) may bring interesting things into game. So if you agree - let's hope we will have this thing in Settings screen soon.

[WK]

I know that there are alot being said by both sides and not only by these two sides. But in the end, if we think realistically, these long threads about new systems in v.0.6 are not very productive.

Productive it may not be, but it shows that people care a lot for the game which is a very good thing . Also, as Alex is working on the game with, might I say, a very small team , these discussions provide feedback, which is the reason why alpha-versions useful. There are a lot of smart people on the forums and some are clearly giving a lot of thought to their posts and suggestions and Alex is then free to use or dismiss these ideas depending on how they fit the bigger picture. I don't see imbalanced game a very big issue at the moment as so many of the core elements of the final gameplay are still missing.

Having an option to disable some new systems would make the game suit the tastes of more people, but it might also make people less persistent in trying out new things they don't initially like. Which is what happened to me with the CR/supply system: after my initial rejection I realized that I like it.

[Sordid]

I still think we should be allowed to deploy non-CR ships with some penalties. I don't care that the shield doesn't work, half the engines won't start, and the guns might blow up when I fire them, I still want to go down fighting. Currently the game simply tells you via some text that you can't deploy your ship, and if the enemy pursues, you once again just get some text telling you the controls are locked because the ship isn't CR. I don't know about you but I don't really consider being told "you lost, tough luck" by some text to be very fun. I'd much prefer to make a desperate last stand with a ship that's falling apart. Go out in a blaze of glory rather than just sit there and helplessly watch an uncontrollable ship be torn apart. IMO that would be a much more satisfying way to lose.

[K-64]

and dont say maintaining a ship is hard work or stressful because every other sci fi or game has spaceships and they are managed and maintained very well

Quick question: Is this every other sci-fi? Exactly.

[Sordid]

and dont say maintaining a ship is hard work or stressful because every other sci fi or game has spaceships and they are managed and maintained very well

Quick question: Is this every other sci-fi? Exactly.

Not to mention that it's not even true. Millennium Falcon, anyone? Or Firefly? "Oh hey, our engine broke and we don't have the spare part we need. I guess we're all dead." That episode is even referenced in one of the skill descriptions in Starsector.

[Alex]

Have to say first: Thanks for continuing your work on Starsector, Alex!

But of course

The way I see it CR is sort of campaign level "damage", overall maintenance level of the ship, and damage to non-combat-critical systems etc. Therefore I hope that the few suggestions about having CR being influenced during combat by combat events are not seriously considered. We have regular damage for that. Having two damage systems (on top of flux which is kind of temporary damage) would be redundant and would take away the elegant simplifaction that comes with the concept of CR.

I think this hits the nail on the head, both as far as what CR represents, and for why influencing it in combat is problematic.

But regardless of how you go about it, winning vs losing a battle is a binary condition, so there's always going to be a hard boundary there. Sometimes, you're just going to suffer a very close defeat, and it's going to sting, as close defeats do. It'll probably sting less if the reasons are crystal clear - at least you can learn from it and move on.

I have to disagree with this. Winning and losing are binary only in sports with strict rules. In war and in a long campaign the distinction between losing and winning is not as easily determined. Related to this, the strict limits on deploying 0% CR ships seems a bit artificial and it creates very odd situations as have been mentioned in the forums. It also creates situations where the player can potentially get a hold of very powerful ships (or their loot) by attacking fleets after very large fights. Seeing that there is a huge capital ship, no matter how crippled, should be a fearsome sight for couple frigates.

You could argue that CR of the death star in the return of the jedi would have been close to 0% but it was still pretty fearsome for a certain fish-faced admiral

I think we may be talking about different things. There's degrees of winning or losing, but at the end of the battle, either your fleet is in control of the battlespace and the enemy retreats, or it's the other way around. No matter how much of a pyrrhic victory you achieved, it's still - from that binary pov - a victory.

I don't really like it when I cannot even put up some semblance of a fight... even when the odds would otherwise suggest a favorable matchup.  The way I see it, an undamaged 1% CR Onslaught should still be able to fend off a 100% CR Shuttle, however ugly and messy it might be.

Considering how stiff the 0% CR penalties are, I think I can support letting ships deploy at empty CR as long as fielding the ship still costs supplies after the battle.

I still think we should be allowed to deploy non-CR ships with some penalties. I don't care that the shield doesn't work, half the engines won't start, and the guns might blow up when I fire them, I still want to go down fighting. Currently the game simply tells you via some text that you can't deploy your ship, and if the enemy pursues, you once again just get some text telling you the controls are locked because the ship isn't CR. I don't know about you but I don't really consider being told "you lost, tough luck" by some text to be very fun. I'd much prefer to make a desperate last stand with a ship that's falling apart. Go out in a blaze of glory rather than just sit there and helplessly watch an uncontrollable ship be torn apart. IMO that would be a much more satisfying way to lose.

All this talk about deploying ships at 0 CR is giving me an idea. Which I won't talk about until having tried it out! But, I'm very much a fan of managing dwindling resources, (ill-fated) last stands, etc, and if it works, it could be very much in line with that.

I know that there are alot being said by both sides and not only by these two sides. But in the end, if we think realistically, these long threads about new systems in v.0.6 are not very productive. I think that Histidine, despite that we disagreed on some things in several threads, proposed one of the best solutions in this thread http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6790.0 .

Just wanted to mentioned that I saw that thread, and am thinking about it (while fixing bugs and such - haven't had too much time to really think too many things through in the last couple of days!) As far as this thread, I think it's been plenty productive. A few good things came out of it directly, and it's incredibly valuable just to see people's experiences with CR. I might wish the thread had a different title, especially given its content, but I suppose one can't have everything

Not to mention that it's not even true. Millennium Falcon, anyone? Or Firefly? "Oh hey, our engine broke and we don't have the spare part we need. I guess we're all dead." That episode is even referenced in one of the skill descriptions in Starsector.

I'm curious, which one? I may have stuck that in there subconsciously as I was watching it around that time, but it wasn't intentional, I think

[Sordid]

All this talk about deploying ships at 0 CR is giving me an idea. Which I won't talk about until having tried it out! But, I'm very much a fan of managing dwindling resources, (ill-fated) last stands, etc, and if it works, it could be very much in line with that.

Capital news! Here's hoping it works!

Not to mention that it's not even true. Millennium Falcon, anyone? Or Firefly? "Oh hey, our engine broke and we don't have the spare part we need. I guess we're all dead." That episode is even referenced in one of the skill descriptions in Starsector.

I'm curious, which one? I may have stuck that in there subconsciously as I was watching it around that time, but it wasn't intentional, I think

The description for Fleet Logistics says "...in deep space, a single missing part can spell disaster." Don't go and tell me that's not a reference to Out of Gas. Because it totally is.

[Sealgaire]

Hey, another long time player but new registree here to chime in on CR. I love it, but it has some kinks that need worked out as can only be expected with such a huge change. It's obvious the system will work better when other (non-combat mostly) systems are in place to support it and interact with it. Right now my biggest problem with it and the thing I think leads to the harsh learning curve is the progression. The hardest part of the game is probably the beginning, especially if you're new. You basically have to learn how to buffalo hunt to survive the start, but once you get a decent fleet of frigates going, it's not tough to stay afloat.

The second difficulty spike the CR and supply system creates is when you move up to cruisers and suddenly can't catch prey big enough to sustain your supply needs while at the same time actually being able to defeat it. Tugs (if you're lucky enough for them to be in stock) and the navigation skill are crucial in this regard, and I don't think you can run large fleets without them, at least at the moment where combat is the only source of resources. Once you learn how to boost your max burn, the game becomes pretty easy again.

In fact, my biggest problem with this update is that once you've learned the basics, the game becomes easier than it's ever been and your progression speeds up exponentially. Getting a fleet of destroyers and cruisers with a battlecruiser flagship should take more than an hour or two, but I'm guessing future updates have some major tweaking in store for the economy.

By the way, I've heard people mention that freighters are useful or even critical now, but I'm really not seeing it. Using my logistics for combat ships seems like a better idea, as even after a huge battle where I gain over a thousand supplies, I still have plenty of time to sell them to a station for huge profits before the logistics penalty hemorrhages them away. My suggestion would be to actually limit what you can carry based on cargo space, maybe letting you go 25% over for huge logistics penalties. It would encourage more diverse fleet compositions and make freighters feel more like freighters.

[WK]

I wouldn't change the cargo-limits at this point. The current system allows you to consider if you are close enough to a station to benefit from the excess cargo or not. Perhaps an appropriate penalty would be to lower the burn rate of over the fleet. I have not noticed this, but has this already been implemented?

[Aozora7]

CR is fine. Supplies are killing this game. They add too much unnecessary bother about them and limit possibilities while providing no fun challenges to overcome.

[Sproginator]

The most annoying thing I've found with the update is there is no real indication as to why supplies go down excessively.

I found after a battle that my supplies per day goes up to like 30 a day! With no real understanding or indication of why

[Tchey]

I didn't play 0.6a a lot yet but i think Combat Readyness is quite OK. The part i don't like is the ugly cost of Supplies. That makes the first couple hours even more difficult than it was before. One mistake and you're more or less good to start a new game, if you don't want to crawl for another couple of hours, actually doing "nothing interesting".

Later, when you start to have some decent fire power and manage to defend and attack well, i feel it is better, as you can salvage Supplies from the defeated ships.