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Author Topic: Combat Readyness isn't fun..  (Read 151210 times)

Silver Silence

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2013, 12:41:40 PM »

My solution to "everything fleeing" is to field a fleet that looks weak, but really isn't.  At the moment, I have one Apogee, one Vigilance, and two tugs; I've just maxed out combat aptitude, and will be starting on tech next.  I field the Apogee for the main fight, and use the Vigilance to run down anything that managed to escape.  Most of the larger pirate fleets - the ones worth fighting - are more than happy to pick a fight with a nearly-solitary cruiser.  And, well, I have maxed combat aptitude and an Apogee with a plasma cannon; the pirates don't stand a chance.

One lone battleship seems weak to the captains of most decently sized pirate fleets. Then they find out this particular battleship has been living a diet of steroids and protein and boy-o-boy-o-boy-o-boy, bad times ahead.
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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2013, 12:57:48 PM »

It is harder to exploit that fun strategy.  Capitals are worth more than before, are only good for one or two fights, and cannot carry all the extra loot salvaged.  If you bring support ships with you, say an Atlas and Oxen, and maybe a frigate to take care of pursuit, all of a sudden, your fleet is big enough that many smaller fleets are fleeing.  Sometimes, I ditch the battleship for more frigates.  Just as effective, but more prone to casualties in big fights instead of the battleship and frigate squad.
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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2013, 01:13:51 PM »

Quote
You might still get a few cap ships together if you're trying to achieve a specific campaign goal (say, glass a Hegemony core world), but that'd be something more circumstance-driven rather than the "standard" fleet. It could also be something that you do more often if you had more points in leadership, though that aptitude needs a lot of work to be more appealing.
Right now, Leadership is the Constitution stat of Starsector.  You cannot ignore it for very long - you must have some to pilot a battleship with more than a skeleton crew without going over Logistics, and you need freighters to carry the supplies you salvage after each battle.  And since CR forces you to rotate ships if you want to fight much, you need a backup ship.  This is a change from previous versions where Leadership was useful, but not required.  Now, it is required, because 20 Logistics is not enough.

Glassing worlds?  Can we wipe out factions off the sector in the finished game?  I would love it if an endgame goal (out of several possible) is destroy all factions via combat.
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Alex

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #78 on: September 17, 2013, 01:18:41 PM »

Right now, Leadership is the Constitution stat of Starsector.  You cannot ignore it for very long - you must have some to pilot a battleship with more than a skeleton crew without going over Logistics, and you need freighters to carry the supplies you salvage after each battle.  And since CR forces you to rotate ships if you want to fight much, you need a backup ship.  This is a change from previous versions where Leadership was useful, but not required.  Now, it is required, because 20 Logistics is not enough.

Yeah... and building on that, it's not a *fun* thing to spend points in, unlike combat or tech which unlock various shinies. I'm ok with that as a temporary state of affairs, but definitely something I'd like to address in the future.

Glassing worlds?  Can we wipe out factions off the sector in the finished game?  I would love it if an endgame goal (out of several possible) is destroy all factions via combat.

:-X
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xenoargh

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #79 on: September 17, 2013, 01:19:48 PM »

I seriously don't think there's any issue with CR atm that can't be solved with buff / nerf, maybe one more variable for Wings.  Alex will get that stuff fixed up for sure.

Be patient, people, changes this large always have unexpected effects on balance, and this is Alpha, so some bumps along the road to balance are normal and should be expected :)
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ValkyriaL

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2013, 01:22:43 PM »

Now... we need a calculator for ramming/collision damage that actually works, so we can use the Onslaught to its full potential. x)
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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2013, 01:24:37 PM »

Okay, it came out a bit too bloodthirsty, but hey!  Star Control 2 had a Sa-Matra to destroy.  Maybe Starsector's BBEG could be all of the factions, or at least both Hegemony and Tri-Tachyon.
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Silver Silence

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2013, 01:30:39 PM »


Glassing worlds?  Can we wipe out factions off the sector in the finished game?  I would love it if an endgame goal (out of several possible) is destroy all factions via combat.

:-X
http://25.media.tumblr.com/deaecc0e466e47a7ea77167381961a69/tumblr_mohw4gbpIp1qmiff2o1_500.gif
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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2013, 01:36:23 PM »

But I did, and will not apologize for that because I got Starsector for the combat.  My only other space game options for now, short of making my own game, is Star Control 2, Transcendence, or one of the retro '80s games like Asteroids, Defender, or Sinistar.  I do not have gobs of time searching for and playing a bunch of other games, as there is more to life than games.  Starsector has the potential to be as fun as Star Control 2 as I had back in the day.

Edit - Before I got Starsector, I had to choose between SPAZ and Starfarer.  My first decision was SPAZ, until I discovered I needed an internet connection to activate the game.  Starsector had a simple key, just like relatively older games from the late '90s.  I play all of my computer games offline.  Starsector won over SPAZ due to no internet required for activation (beyond acquiring the key).  Thank you Alex and the rest of Fractal Softworks.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 01:41:40 PM by Megas »
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rex

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2013, 02:34:57 PM »

But I did, and will not apologize for that because I got Starsector for the combat.  My only other space game options for now, short of making my own game, is Star Control 2, Transcendence, or one of the retro '80s games like Asteroids, Defender, or Sinistar.  I do not have gobs of time searching for and playing a bunch of other games, as there is more to life than games.  Starsector has the potential to be as fun as Star Control 2 as I had back in the day.

Edit - Before I got Starsector, I had to choose between SPAZ and Starfarer.  My first decision was SPAZ, until I discovered I needed an internet connection to activate the game.  Starsector had a simple key, just like relatively older games from the late '90s.  I play all of my computer games offline.  Starsector won over SPAZ due to no internet required for activation (beyond acquiring the key).  Thank you Alex and the rest of Fractal Softworks.

Well... if you really want space combat with destroying world you could always track down Master of Orion 2(and a license. and a license for XP so you can set up a Virtual Machine.).

Starsector totally needs a Stellar Converter, because nothing is more cathartic after a hard won battle than converting a planet into a dust cloud. 
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Uomoz

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2013, 02:49:04 PM »

But I did, and will not apologize for that because I got Starsector for the combat.  My only other space game options for now, short of making my own game, is Star Control 2, Transcendence, or one of the retro '80s games like Asteroids, Defender, or Sinistar.  I do not have gobs of time searching for and playing a bunch of other games, as there is more to life than games.  Starsector has the potential to be as fun as Star Control 2 as I had back in the day.

Edit - Before I got Starsector, I had to choose between SPAZ and Starfarer.  My first decision was SPAZ, until I discovered I needed an internet connection to activate the game.  Starsector had a simple key, just like relatively older games from the late '90s.  I play all of my computer games offline.  Starsector won over SPAZ due to no internet required for activation (beyond acquiring the key).  Thank you Alex and the rest of Fractal Softworks.

Play, edit, create Missions. Eeeeeasy. :D
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Alfalfa

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2013, 02:56:49 PM »

But I did, and will not apologize for that because I got Starsector for the combat.  My only other space game options for now, short of making my own game, is Star Control 2, Transcendence, or one of the retro '80s games like Asteroids, Defender, or Sinistar.  I do not have gobs of time searching for and playing a bunch of other games, as there is more to life than games.  Starsector has the potential to be as fun as Star Control 2 as I had back in the day.

Edit - Before I got Starsector, I had to choose between SPAZ and Starfarer.  My first decision was SPAZ, until I discovered I needed an internet connection to activate the game.  Starsector had a simple key, just like relatively older games from the late '90s.  I play all of my computer games offline.  Starsector won over SPAZ due to no internet required for activation (beyond acquiring the key).  Thank you Alex and the rest of Fractal Softworks.

I always felt Star Control 2 was more about exploration than combat.
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Sordid

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2013, 03:42:47 PM »

One thing that bothers me about the new CR and multiple engagements system is that the side that has the last combat ready ship wins regardless of anything else coupled with the fact that you lose CR after the end of an engagement. So get this, this happened today:

I'd done the exact same thing I always do in Starfarer: Hound into Lasher into Medusa into Onslaught. Only two things different about it this time around: One, I had to add a couple of freighters to help me haul loot, and two, I got there a lot quicker due to the increased value of supplies. You can get a battleship in like twenty minutes, which is just silly. I assume that's going to get tweaked further down the road. Anyway here I am in my almost-solo Onslaught against a pirate supply fleet. And as usual I completely annihilate it. Except this time my battleship was on low CR and couldn't be deployed at all for the second engagement. And the enemy had two or three freighters that they'd held in reserve and hadn't deployed for the first fight. Usually these make a retreat and let me pick through the salvage from the battle but this time they turned around and said: "Oh look, his big scary battleship isn't combat ready, let's stand and fight!" And that was that. My own freighters weren't armed, so I couldn't beat them, and I was forced to turn tail and run.

I mean... what happened there? My battleship was perfectly capable of combat at the end of the last engagement, it was moving about and shooting just fine. What exactly happened to it after the enemy had been defeated that made it utterly incapable of any action? And even if it was incapable of combat, so what? The enemy freighters had like two machine guns each, even if they emptied their entire ammo supply into my ship they would barely have scratched the paint. I could just sit there and wait for them to get bored and go away. And even non-combat ready ships are capable of travel, i.e. movement, so I could have destroyed them by just ramming them. But nope, can't deploy at all...

I found that made very little sense.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 03:44:26 PM by Sordid »
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Alfalfa

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #88 on: September 17, 2013, 03:44:11 PM »

Right now, Leadership is the Constitution stat of Starsector.  You cannot ignore it for very long - you must have some to pilot a battleship with more than a skeleton crew without going over Logistics, and you need freighters to carry the supplies you salvage after each battle.  And since CR forces you to rotate ships if you want to fight much, you need a backup ship.  This is a change from previous versions where Leadership was useful, but not required.  Now, it is required, because 20 Logistics is not enough.

Yeah... and building on that, it's not a *fun* thing to spend points in, unlike combat or tech which unlock various shinies. I'm ok with that as a temporary state of affairs, but definitely something I'd like to address in the future.

Well, you could put in a Leadership fighter skill...  ;)
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Alex

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2013, 04:07:35 PM »

@Sordid:
Well... the same sort of thing happens when a ship goes from 1 hitpoint to 0 and explodes, or 1 point over its flux capacity and overloads.

If you're looking for lore justifications, I think you could probably come up with quite a few. One possible explanation: let's say the power conduits are only rated for a certain number of charge up/down cycles, and re-powering up the weapon system at that point would simply blow everything out.


That said, the situation you described is quite an unpleasant surprise for the player. Changed it so that a beaten fleet won't attempt to re-engage if the only reserves it has are civilian ships. Previously, it would not attempt to reengage if it had no reserves - even if some of the deployed-then-retreated ships were still combat ready. Basically, the goal here is to prevent the player from losing a battle due to CR where it feels like they won. IMO, if there are military-grade, combat-ready reserves, then tough luck - but if the enemy was all in a headlong flight, or only had civilian ships in reserve, then they should just keep on running.

Thanks for pointing this out, btw!
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