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Author Topic: Combat Readyness isn't fun..  (Read 140068 times)

DatonKallandor

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #465 on: October 15, 2013, 12:45:53 PM »

Supplies should not cost so much.  Too expensive to buy, too expensive to fully repair a ship, yet too profitable if much more can be obtained then needed.  Supplies need to be cheaper.  Bigger ships eat too many supplies to recover CR.  Ships seem to eat more supplies than before, and freighters are almost required to pick up enough salvage to profit.  Problems with CR and supplies are linked.

Deploying high tech ships costs too much CR, unless the ship is the flagship with max Combat (for -30% CR cost).

The whole point is that you need a freighter to haul away the loot if you wanna make a profit. That's what freighters are for. That's not a symptom of the CR/Supply system not working, it's an indicator that it is working perfectly.

Ditto for high tech ships costing a lot of CR - that's the whole point. The are stronger than equivalent mid-tech ships - and high tech is very hard to keep working in a post-apocalyptic setting. Deploying your super-ultra-high-tech battleship shouldn't be a "I'll do it every battle" thing, it's something you think about. Because if you deploy it now you might not be able to deploy it again tomorrow or the day after that.
For example, the only thing keeping the Tempest even remotely in check is it's crazy high CR loss per deployment - but for that one battle you use it it's a force multiplier like nothing else in space, able to take out entire fleets. That kind of power comes at a cost, and that cost is literal, you know, cost.

It also means you can always challenge yourself to defeat any given enemy with ever smaller and cheaper deployments - and the better you, your tactics and your ship designs are, the more profit you get out of any given fight. A big fleet using only a small part to fight makes a much bigger profit - but it obviously also has to pay for the ability to bring in extra reserves if the fight goes badly somehow. It does that by having a higher upkeep than a smaller fleet made up of exactly the right amount of ships.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 12:51:09 PM by DatonKallandor »
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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #466 on: October 15, 2013, 02:35:50 PM »

Quote
The whole point is that you need a freighter to haul away the loot if you wanna make a profit. That's what freighters are for. That's not a symptom of the CR/Supply system not working, it's an indicator that it is working perfectly.
Not if I am overflowing with loot after a routine fight against a greater-than-or-equal strength fleet.  All that does is make me stop what I do, pick up loot, run back to base, then go back to whatever my original mission was.  I do not get overflowing loot after a single fight in other games.  Freighters should be useful for long voyages or for efficient trading runs, not an LR tax to pick up all loot from one or two fights.  As for all of that loot, about a fourth or third of it gets consumed for repairs and CR recovery.  The rest gets sold for easy money.

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Ditto for high tech ships costing a lot of CR - that's the whole point. The are stronger than equivalent mid-tech ships
Not always.  They have different strengths.

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For example, the only thing keeping the Tempest even remotely in check is it's crazy high CR loss per deployment - but for that one battle you use it it's a force multiplier like nothing else in space, able to take out entire fleets. That kind of power comes at a cost, and that cost is literal, you know, cost.
No frigate has that kind of power anymore, thanks to the CR decay in battle (or ammo limits in case of Lasher and Brawler).  Tempests also cost so much money (slightly less than Hyperion) that three Lashers or Wolves are a better deal for all-around grunt work.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #467 on: October 15, 2013, 03:58:06 PM »

No frigate has that kind of power anymore, thanks to the CR decay in battle (or ammo limits in case of Lasher and Brawler).  Tempests also cost so much money (slightly less than Hyperion) that three Lashers or Wolves are a better deal for all-around grunt work.

That is simply untrue. The Terminator Drone is far more powerful than the Tempests stats suggest - it's a teleporting, phase cloaking, self-replicating fighter with IR pulse laser and burst PD. It's mobility also means they stack much better than anything - more terminator drones become exponentially more powerful because they don't get in each others way.

As for the Hyperion: It can teleport at more than a screen range an unlimited number of times with no cooldown and carry enough firepower to wipe ships two size categories higher out in one volley. It's peak combat time is more than adequate to do all of that within the allotted timespan. In fact the change to peak combat time to make it less punishing (it only ticks down when a frigate is actually doing something) probably means the Tempest needs an even shorter peak time. There simply is no more powerful ship in the game period, which is why it such a high deploy cost, purchase cost and upkeep cost.

If you're fighting every in-game day you're better off with an equivalent logistics capacity of lashers yes. Working as intended - low/mid-tech ships are workhorses that are rugged enough to be useable over and over again without rest. But for that one single first battle high-tech ships like the Hyperion and Tempest will produce far better results. They just can't repeat those results if there's a follow up battle.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 04:00:28 PM by DatonKallandor »
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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #468 on: October 15, 2013, 06:59:09 PM »

Terminator drone is about as well armed as a single fighter.  All the drone is good at doing is surviving and distracting enemies, as long as the Tempest remains active.  No question the Tempest is good but it is not much better than the rest of the better frigates.  It is as fast as the Hound and can outgun anything else that matches its speed (i.e., Hounds and fast fighters), making it a great interceptor and objective grabber.  For beating down other ships, it is about equal to other good frigates like the Afflictor (another high-tech ship), Brawler, and Lasher.  Wolf is not quite as good, but it can contribute satisfactorily.

Lasher is very good.  With railguns or needlers and enough range bonuses, it can outrange destroyers or even cruisers, kite them until shields overload, then pound them with assault guns while they are vulnerable.  A Lasher flagship can wipe out smaller fleets single-handedly just like Hyperion or Tempest flagship.

Hyperion is in a class of its own.  It was known for wiping out defense fleets single-handedly in the days before v0.6.  It cannot do that anymore in a single battle.  Three minutes (granted by Hardened Subsystems) and countdown from 100% CR is not enough time.  That is enough time to disable a little more than half a defense fleet before CR decays to zero, then it must retreat.
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Thaago

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #469 on: October 15, 2013, 08:50:45 PM »

Err... I have to disagree with you there! The Tempest is miles ahead of everything but the Hyperion. A Lasher might take down an ill equipped cruiser with short range weapons if it had a maxed out tech and combat tree. A Tempest will take down the entire SDF with those bonuses. The drone distracting enemies is a massive massive advantage! It does a better job imo than a standard frigate escort, and they scale together perfectly. For a few tasks I'd rather have an Afflictor - taking out an Onslaught or Dominator is easier in an Afflictor - but for everything else the Tempest just wins.
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HeliosRX

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #470 on: October 16, 2013, 02:02:40 PM »

So, I finally tried out 0.61a, and found it to be a mix of interesting new strategies and unintuitive logistical problems.

Generally, I have no problem with mechanics such as CR because they lend more strategy into a game and force me to think tactically. I love the concept of my ship malfunctioning around me as a battle drags on extensively, because it lends an element of desperation and grit to the game. This time around, however, the numbers and implementation really turned me off. With the absurd increase in ship upkeep and supply costs, I have no option but to constantly engage in battle to maintain a steady stream of cash... But  I can't, because CR prevents me from deploying when my ships are below 10% CR. Still not that big of a problem, I can appreciate the longer period of time it now takes to build up a fleet.

The annoying thing is how much CR disempowers the player, because it is seriously not fun to be stuck in a full-health Aurora with 9% CR trying to run away from a single crippled hound with controls locked and watching helplessly from the sidelines because apparently it's better to get shot to pieces rather than fight a single frigate who I'd eat for breakfast if I just had one percent more CR. The worst part is that there is nothing I can do to skip the murder of my shiny cruiser because there is no way in hell I can make it to the edge of the map before dying or taking massive damage... and feeling helpless is something that should not happen without some deus ex machine in a game.

CR is a binary, unintuitive mechanic that forces the player to never deploy their strongest, most high tech ships lest they get caught with their pants down before the CR regenerates. I recommend either putting an option to turn it off or just allowing ships to be deployed at 0% CR but with massive penalties.
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dmaiski

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #471 on: October 16, 2013, 02:39:00 PM »

The annoying thing is how much CR disempowers the player, because it is seriously not fun to be stuck in a full-health Aurora with 9% CR trying to run away from a single crippled hound with controls locked and watching helplessly from the sidelines because apparently it's better to get shot to pieces rather than fight a single frigate who I'd eat for breakfast if I just had one percent more CR. The worst part is that there is nothing I can do to skip the murder of my shiny cruiser because there is no way in hell I can make it to the edge of the map before dying or taking massive damage... and feeling helpless is something that should not happen without some deus ex machine in a game.
:P should have had a reserve force of:
1x 60% cr hound

caus thats what i do, and I realy havent had many problems like that (except the time before i figured out i have to keep some ships in reserve just in case(like the ai dose))
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Megas

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #472 on: October 16, 2013, 03:44:05 PM »

Err... I have to disagree with you there! The Tempest is miles ahead of everything but the Hyperion. A Lasher might take down an ill equipped cruiser with short range weapons if it had a maxed out tech and combat tree. A Tempest will take down the entire SDF with those bonuses. The drone distracting enemies is a massive massive advantage! It does a better job imo than a standard frigate escort, and they scale together perfectly. For a few tasks I'd rather have an Afflictor - taking out an Onslaught or Dominator is easier in an Afflictor - but for everything else the Tempest just wins.
The Tempest is good, excellent in a certain role, but in all-around fighting, it is equal or slightly better than other good attack frigate types.  As a grunt controlled by the AI in a frigate swarm, the Tempest does not perform much better than other top frigates.  They are just as prone to stupidity as other ships, and, in my experience, tend to die about as much as the other good attack frigate types.  It is miles ahead of other frigates in one thing, the cost to buy one.  At least it does not need rare weapons (like needlers) to be effective.

Like the Hyperion, the Tempest cannot destroy the entire defense fleet in a single battle due to CR decay, even with Hardened Subsystems.  It can kill about half the fleet.  It took me three non-pursuit battles with Tempest, two with Hyperion, and repairs were done between each battle.

I tried the Lasher against the Hegemony defense fleet and running out of ammo for my light assault guns was more of a problem than CR decay, even without Hardened Subsystems.  It can take out about a fifth or fourth of an entire defense fleet before assault gun ammo runs out.  In other words, a super Lasher can destroy a defense fleet in four or five battles.  Not as fast as Hyperion or Tempest, but it can do it.

A Lasher flagship with max Combat and Technology, and 100% CR can, in a one-on-one fight, destroy any ship without much difficulty except a Paragon.  Against a Paragon, one-on-one, its only chance to win is an all needler configuration, which is a less efficient configuration against other weaker ships.
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PCCL

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #473 on: October 16, 2013, 03:45:45 PM »

yep, holding a small reserve force next to your main shiny ships is a good idea

Quote
feeling helpless is something that should not happen without some deus ex machine in a game.

uh... I disagree with that... Games aren't always power fantasies, if you make mistakes (i.e by deploying auroras when auroras aren't necessary) you're gonna end up in a helpless situation. (And if you have nothing to deploy other than your Aurora, that's a mistake all to itself)

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CR is a binary, unintuitive mechanic that forces the player to never deploy their strongest, most high tech ships lest they get caught with their pants down before the CR regenerates.

Yep, you're not supposed to deploy your best ships unless absolutely necessarily, that's the point of CR, working as intended I believe. Or you can do what dmaiski said and deploy your best ships as a main force, with a smaller less fancy squadron as a reserve, that's not too hard to manage
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Midnight Kitsune

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #474 on: October 16, 2013, 04:28:37 PM »

Quote
CR is a binary, unintuitive mechanic that forces the player to never deploy their strongest, most high tech ships lest they get caught with their pants down before the CR regenerates.
Yep, you're not supposed to deploy your best ships unless absolutely necessarily, that's the point of CR, working as intended I believe. Or you can do what dmaiski said and deploy your best ships as a main force, with a smaller less fancy squadron as a reserve, that's not too hard to manage
The problem with that is it creates "hanger queens" that almost never see combat and are almost better not being purchased or used at all due to the "scare factor" and supply costs they add to your fleet
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Uomoz

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #475 on: October 16, 2013, 04:43:12 PM »

Quote
CR is a binary, unintuitive mechanic that forces the player to never deploy their strongest, most high tech ships lest they get caught with their pants down before the CR regenerates.
Yep, you're not supposed to deploy your best ships unless absolutely necessarily, that's the point of CR, working as intended I believe. Or you can do what dmaiski said and deploy your best ships as a main force, with a smaller less fancy squadron as a reserve, that's not too hard to manage
The problem with that is it creates "hanger queens" that almost never see combat and are almost better not being purchased or used at all due to the "scare factor" and supply costs they add to your fleet

That's because you don't have to assault a station, for example. WIP game is WIP! :)
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Alex

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #476 on: October 16, 2013, 05:06:12 PM »

Pet peeve: it's "hangar".
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Flare

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #477 on: October 16, 2013, 06:49:47 PM »

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Cycerin

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #478 on: October 16, 2013, 07:41:31 PM »

^Hahahahahah.
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Thaago

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #479 on: October 16, 2013, 08:22:06 PM »

previous post

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree :P. There was just a video posted of a Tempest taking down the SDF, while I'm not sure a Lasher has enough ammo to take out an Onslaught. Maybe with 4x reapers with the missile perks? Certainly not with the guns. And it really shouldn't be able to survive getting close either - even with perks they kind of evaporate...
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