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Starsector 0.95.1a is out! (12/10/21); Blog post: Hostile Activity (09/01/22)

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Author Topic: Combat Readyness isn't fun..  (Read 140066 times)

Joush

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Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« on: September 16, 2013, 05:43:38 AM »

.. and it's keeping .6a from being fun.

It's too heavily abstracted and there is nothing that interacts well with it. As it works now, it functions mostly to force players to rest, burning supplies, between fights, while supplies have become the primary expense and a constant drain. Rather then the primary limit to how much you can fight being your ability to engage and defeat foes, your ability to fight is now primarily limited by a pair of heavily abstracted concepts, supplies and combat readiness. A damaged fleet can have a voracious appetite for supplies, able to consume a freighter's worth before they will be ready to engage in combat again.

And of course, we come to the cost of supplies, something changed and warped so much that at this point the ammunition, food and spare parts carried by a fleet is higher then the price to buy their ships outright.

I can see, in the blog post and in the game, what this system was intended to do, but currently it adds nothing good to the gameplay.
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liq3

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2013, 06:34:10 AM »

.. and it's keeping .6a from being fun.
I disagree.
Quote
It's too heavily abstracted and there is nothing that interacts well with it. As it works now, it functions mostly to force players to rest, burning supplies, between fights, while supplies have become the primary expense and a constant drain.
This is true in all walks of life. Maintenance of vehicles (let alone full blown repairs from weapon hits) is usually always more expensive then the initial construction (assuming they have a long life).
Quote
Rather then the primary limit to how much you can fight being your ability to engage and defeat foes, your ability to fight is now primarily limited by a pair of heavily abstracted concepts, supplies and combat readiness. A damaged fleet can have a voracious appetite for supplies, able to consume a freighter's worth before they will be ready to engage in combat again.
So you're saying ships that have taken people sized shellings, missiles blowing chunks in the hull and lasers melting the armour, SHOULD NOT use insane amounts of supplies to repair? You're basically rebuilding entire parts of the ship.

Quote
And of course, we come to the cost of supplies, something changed and warped so much that at this point the ammunition, food and spare parts carried by a fleet is higher then the price to buy their ships outright.
The way the game works atm, the spare parts are enough to basically build an entire ship anyway. It does rather make sense they'd be expensive.

Quote
I can see, in the blog post and in the game, what this system was intended to do, but currently it adds nothing good to the gameplay.
It does add something good - it's making the choice of battles more interesting. It's making the strategic layer deeper. No longer can you just go and annihilate weaker enemy fleets using your entire fleet. You have the balance how easily you want to win, with the cost of supplies. This results in interesting choices, and thus enjoyment.
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Uomoz

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2013, 06:40:13 AM »

Completely agree with liq3.
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Gotcha!

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2013, 06:44:36 AM »

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Histidine

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2013, 06:53:36 AM »

Rather then the primary limit to how much you can fight being your ability to engage and defeat foes, your ability to fight is now primarily limited by a pair of heavily abstracted concepts, supplies and combat readiness.
Hmm. I dunno about you, but for me the time immediately after a battle is spent hauling loot to the nearest station anyway, and after that (assuming I didn't just get CR replenished there) I still have to spend time looking for and chasing fleets appropriate to my strength. CR is never the limiting factor on how often I can fight battles.
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ValkyriaL

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2013, 06:54:46 AM »

Go low tech and your CR is back the second the fight is over. ;D
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Joush

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2013, 07:02:19 AM »

.. and it's keeping .6a from being fun.
I disagree.
Quote
It's too heavily abstracted and there is nothing that interacts well with it. As it works now, it functions mostly to force players to rest, burning supplies, between fights, while supplies have become the primary expense and a constant drain.
This is true in all walks of life. Maintenance of vehicles (let alone full blown repairs from weapon hits) is usually always more expensive then the initial construction (assuming they have a long life).
Quote
Rather then the primary limit to how much you can fight being your ability to engage and defeat foes, your ability to fight is now primarily limited by a pair of heavily abstracted concepts, supplies and combat readiness. A damaged fleet can have a voracious appetite for supplies, able to consume a freighter's worth before they will be ready to engage in combat again.
So you're saying ships that have taken people sized shellings, missiles blowing chunks in the hull and lasers melting the armour, SHOULD NOT use insane amounts of supplies to repair? You're basically rebuilding entire parts of the ship.

Quote
And of course, we come to the cost of supplies, something changed and warped so much that at this point the ammunition, food and spare parts carried by a fleet is higher then the price to buy their ships outright.
The way the game works atm, the spare parts are enough to basically build an entire ship anyway. It does rather make sense they'd be expensive.

Quote
I can see, in the blog post and in the game, what this system was intended to do, but currently it adds nothing good to the gameplay.
It does add something good - it's making the choice of battles more interesting. It's making the strategic layer deeper. No longer can you just go and annihilate weaker enemy fleets using your entire fleet. You have the balance how easily you want to win, with the cost of supplies. This results in interesting choices, and thus enjoyment.


Most of maintenance and operating cost is salaries, something the game makes no effort to cover, unless supplies are also payroll (given they are abstracted to cover everything else we may as well say they are.)

If you'd like to bring realism in, I'd suggest you don't. Nothing about the game is realistic, while it is internally consistent and effective at what it dose, the simple fact is that after a battle with serious damage a ship should be fit for nothing but being scrapped for salvage if we are being "realistic". In real life, it's nearly never economical to repair a ship that has suffered heavy damage. In truth, my problem isn't really with repairs and their supply cost, it's with the CR system.  It still is silly and counter intuitive that supplies are more expensive then ships or weapons.

CR doesn't really interact with how much damage a ship took. A ship that never took armor damage and one reduced to a half melted ruin are equally crippled for being in a fight. You have no way to repair CR faster, and no way to avoid CR loss. Yes, there are some strategies that work with it, and other that simply exploit it to make for easy fights and free money, but none of those are fun. The single defense of them is that it encourages you to have reserve ships, but is that really a problem? Especially given your foes are in no way required to stage their attacks this way, and will mob with what they have at hand. If you don't have reserve ships, or are one of the people that prefers to play with a single ship, it simply serves as a time out box that effects you far more then anyone you are fighting.
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Doom101

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2013, 07:15:03 AM »

I've yet to run into any CR related issues, save for when i've been stranded in space after chasing a particularly juicy fleet of buffalos out into the fringes of space.
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When you can't go on, just accept your doom. It comes to all, it is inevitable.

Also I totally had the name BEFORE the cruiser.

Reshy

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2013, 07:22:57 AM »

Let's just get some numbers out.


Most Frigates cost about 2 supplies a day plus the never quite full CR penalty which brings it up to about 3.  This means that for each frigate in the fleet you have to pay 360 credits PER DAY.  Keep in mind that you only get a thousand or two credits per fight at the lower levels.  Now keep in mind how long it takes to regenerate CR and you can see where the problems begin.  Furthermore this doesn't account for damage ships take in battle (which they inevitably will).


Now that's just frigates, how about we go a little higher with destroyers, they often cost 4 a day and while under CR they take about 5 per day.  That means they take about 600 credits per day.  Not as bad as frigates but still pretty expensive considering how empty the sector is.


Cruisers take about 9 per day on average with an additional 2 for CR generation.  About 1320 credits per day.  Capital ships take up on average 15 supplies a day and 20 while regenerating CR or about 2400 credits per day.



All of this together means that the amount of cargo space, credits, and supply usage is far too high at this point in time.  Furthermore the AI really isn't affected by CR in the same way the player is.  They have infinitely respawning fleets that can get free resupplies whenever they want while you cannot.  They always deploy all of their ships into combat and of course since they're AIs they can deal with losses in a way the player cannot.  While you have to deal with being unable to field your entire force, high maintenance costs, and a limited budget.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 07:28:43 AM by Reshy »
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liq3

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2013, 07:30:45 AM »

Let's just get some numbers out.


Most Frigates cost about 2 supplies a day plus the never quite full CR penalty which brings it up to about 3.  This means that for each frigate in the fleet you have to pay 360 credits PER DAY.  Keep in mind that you only get a thousand or two credits per fight at the lower levels.  Now keep in mind how long it takes to regenerate CR and you can see where the problems begin.  Furthermore this doesn't account for damage ships take in battle (which they inevitably will).


Now that's just frigates, how about we go a little higher with destroyers, they often cost 4 a day and while under CR they take about 5 per day.  That means they take about 600 credits per day.  Not as bad as frigates but still pretty expensive considering how empty the sector is.


Cruisers take about 9 per day on average with an additional 2 for CR generation.  About 1320 credits per day.  Capital ships take up on average 15 supplies a day and 20 while regenerating CR or about 2400 credits per day.



All of this together means that the amount of cargo space, credits, and supply usage is far too high at this point in time.  Furthermore the AI really isn't affected by CR in the same way the player is.  They have infinitely respawning fleets that can get free resupplies whenever they want while you cannot.  They always deploy all of their ships into combat and of course since they're AIs they can deal with losses in a way the player cannot.
I think you're misunderstanding the numbers. Ships only use 10% supplies when they're at max CR. My fleet is using 2.1 supplies a day at max CR. It consists of 4 fighter squadrons, a frigate, a Hammerhead and a Condor.  Deploying the Hammerhead for example only costs 10 supplies too, or 1200 credits.
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Krippakrull

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2013, 07:33:44 AM »


CR doesn't really interact with how much damage a ship took. A ship that never took armor damage and one reduced to a half melted ruin are equally crippled for being in a fight. You have no way to repair CR faster, and no way to avoid CR loss. Yes, there are some strategies that work with it, and other that simply exploit it to make for easy fights and free money, but none of those are fun. The single defense of them is that it encourages you to have reserve ships, but is that really a problem? Especially given your foes are in no way required to stage their attacks this way, and will mob with what they have at hand. If you don't have reserve ships, or are one of the people that prefers to play with a single ship, it simply serves as a time out box that effects you far more then anyone you are fighting.


Firstly, having easy ways to negate CR loss or repair it faster would LESSEN the choice you made when deciding your fleet layout. Differing deployment costs and recovery costs makes you think long and hard about what combos of ships are worth it. Playing with a single ship is still also quite viable, you just have to invest i a freighter and a few tugs. Their supply usage is minimal really. On accelerated time the downtime for CR recovery in physical time is very short indeed too.

I do see where you are coming from in a way though, when the only current objective of the game is to fight fleet after fleet, CR and expensive supplies get in the way (though I do think they still make an interesting mechanic) of the meat of the game. On the other hand, the game is IN-DEVELOPMENT, as it says right on the tin. I think players offering critique of new mechanics (outside of those only pertaining to combat) should at least think a little bit about how said mechanics are likely to work with the rest of the content in the finished game.
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RawCode

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2013, 07:44:07 AM »

game no longer fun, now it survival + grinding, i personally can't understand why capital ship lose 30%CR per combat ever without taking any damage.

really, WTF???

3 damn frigates attacking capital ship one at time will win, ever without doing ANY DAMAGE.
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ValkyriaL

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2013, 07:47:16 AM »

going into combat stations and then going back and forth from there must be very tiring for the crew, and putting the ship in full combat readiness and then back down and back up again strains the systems because, you don't have time to fix them if you're being constantly harassed.

You have to think outside the box sometimes.
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mendonca

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2013, 07:53:47 AM »

Also, why would a capital ship not have a significant escort?
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Joush

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Re: Combat Readyness isn't fun..
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2013, 08:01:35 AM »


CR doesn't really interact with how much damage a ship took. A ship that never took armor damage and one reduced to a half melted ruin are equally crippled for being in a fight. You have no way to repair CR faster, and no way to avoid CR loss. Yes, there are some strategies that work with it, and other that simply exploit it to make for easy fights and free money, but none of those are fun. The single defense of them is that it encourages you to have reserve ships, but is that really a problem? Especially given your foes are in no way required to stage their attacks this way, and will mob with what they have at hand. If you don't have reserve ships, or are one of the people that prefers to play with a single ship, it simply serves as a time out box that effects you far more then anyone you are fighting.


Firstly, having easy ways to negate CR loss or repair it faster would LESSEN the choice you made when deciding your fleet layout. Differing deployment costs and recovery costs makes you think long and hard about what combos of ships are worth it. Playing with a single ship is still also quite viable, you just have to invest i a freighter and a few tugs. Their supply usage is minimal really. On accelerated time the downtime for CR recovery in physical time is very short indeed too.

I do see where you are coming from in a way though, when the only current objective of the game is to fight fleet after fleet, CR and expensive supplies get in the way (though I do think they still make an interesting mechanic) of the meat of the game. On the other hand, the game is IN-DEVELOPMENT, as it says right on the tin. I think players offering critique of new mechanics (outside of those only pertaining to combat) should at least think a little bit about how said mechanics are likely to work with the rest of the content in the finished game.

Having no way to interact with CR save to hold down the shift key and sigh?

Bad game design. There are currently no skills, hull mods or ship special abilities that relate to it, while as every other aspect of a ship can be effected. I did not say an easy way to negate CR loss, just some other part of the game having an effect on it would be a good idea. Obliviously. To the point where I seriously question rolling it out before fitting it into the game.

I am sort of bemused that your suggestion to work with one ship is to buy several other ships, but yes, if you are willing to compromise on one ship you can have one ship take the lead, striking and then running away to recover CR.

game no longer fun, now it survival + grinding, i personally can't understand why capital ship lose 30%CR per combat ever without taking any damage.

really, WTF???

3 damn frigates attacking capital ship one at time will win, ever without doing ANY DAMAGE.


I hear that. It's inane that a ship can fight a gigantic fleet action at perfect combat readiness, even if it takes a very long time and involves firing it's guns constantly for half an hour, but two or three small engagements turns it into a helpless, uncontrollable target.

going into combat stations and then going back and forth from there must be very tiring for the crew, and putting the ship in full combat readiness and then back down and back up again strains the systems because, you don't have time to fix them if you're being constantly harassed.

You have to think outside the box sometimes.

I'm aware of the basic justification for the CR system, I do read the blog. My point is a game play one, that it's not fun.

Also, why would a capital ship not have a significant escort?

Cruisers and destroyers often operate alone. Even battleships and battle cruisers would be tasked to solo missions like raiding. More to the point, given the inspirations for the game, first-rate ships of the line were often deployed to station alone.
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