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Author Topic: [0.95a] Kadur Remnant 3.2.3 - life support 2021-03-27  (Read 488152 times)

MShadowy

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.3 (new version 9/22/2013)
« Reply #90 on: September 24, 2013, 08:25:39 PM »

Ah, yeah. I just wanted to have pretty systems.  :'(

The offending background will be darkened a bit for the next release. Speaking of which, I'll be putting out a new update soon as Exerelin just released and I want everyone to be able to claim systems in the name of the Theocracy should they so choose. Sadly I'm busy all day today, but tomorrow I am free to pore over .faction and .java files until my eyes fall out so you can expect an Exerelin compatibility patch around then. I had it compatible with the old version for Starsector 0.54.1a, so it shouldn't be too much work... I hope. :v

This is actually why ended up making the background for Anar a custom one.  Most of the available real images of Nebulae had those super bright stars present in them, and that can be kinda glaring to look at for a while.

Well, that and I wasn't particularly taken with most other peoples nebulae (not that my effort is really too much to write home about.)
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Borgoid

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.3 (new version 9/22/2013)
« Reply #91 on: September 24, 2013, 08:32:01 PM »

Ah, yeah. I just wanted to have pretty systems.  :'(

Don't get me wrong it's undeniably pretty - It's just unpractical :P
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Zaphide

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.3 (new version 9/22/2013)
« Reply #92 on: September 24, 2013, 08:40:12 PM »

They haven't been updated for a few revisions, so I'll probably take a look at the other currently implemented factions and balance them a little/add the ships that have been added since I wrote those lists. Which ones are no longer needed, in-system attack and supply fleets, or..?

And yes, of course! In 0.54.1a if I wasn't playing Uomoz's Corvus with a pile of extra mods, I was playing Exerelin.

edit: By the way, I'll totally mess with my scripts to not generate if Exerelin is active. :D

You wont need the outSystemStationAttackFleet and the outSystemSupplyConvoy fleets anymore. Also, the InSystemSupplyConvoy should now be 3 freighters :)

I can provide you with the code to use to check if Exerelin is active but it would be very similar to what you are using to check for other mods already.
e.g. in your ModPlugin.initVayra (I think)
Code
try
{
        Global.getSettings().getScriptClassLoader().loadClass("data.scripts.world.ExerelinGen);
        return; // Exerelin found so skip generation
}
catch (ClassNotFoundException ex)
{
         // Exerelin not found so continue and run normal generation code
}
// TODO run your normal mod gen code

At least, something along those lines should do the trick :)
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Vayra

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.4 (new version 9/24/2013) Exerelin compatible!
« Reply #93 on: September 24, 2013, 09:38:57 PM »

BAM! New version, 1.1.4, including Exerelin compatibility. I also dimmed the cores of the stars in the Mirage background, since that seemed to be the most offensive part. Let me know if it's any better.

You'll need to do some light editing of Exerelin at the moment to fully integrate it. Specifically, put the following code into Exerelin/data/scripts/world/exerelin/ExerelinData.java where the other faction detection lines are:

Code
		// Test for Kadur Theocracy
if(isFactionInstalled("regime", "data.scripts.world.vayraKadurGen"))
            possibleFactionList.add("regime");

// Test for Qamar Insurgency
if(isFactionInstalled("insurgency", "data.scripts.world.vayraKadurGen"))
            possibleFactionList.add("insurgency");

And if you want to start with a Kadur ship, the following code into Exerelin/data/scripts/plugins/CharacterCreationPluginImpl.java where the other starting ship options are:

Code
			else if (factionId.equalsIgnoreCase("regime"))
            {
                data.addStartingShipChoice("khs_camel_Combat");
                data.addStartingShipChoice("khs_hyena_Picket");
            }
else if (factionId.equalsIgnoreCase("insurgency"))
            {
                data.addStartingShipChoice("khs_hyena_acehigh");
                data.addStartingShipChoice("khs_buzzard_pd");
            }
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 09:41:25 PM by Vayra »
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Kadur Remnant: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6649
Vayra's Sector: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=16058
Vayra's Ship Pack: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=16059

im gonna push jangala into the sun i swear to god im gonna do it

Zaphide

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.4 (new version 9/24/2013) Exerelin compatible!
« Reply #94 on: September 24, 2013, 09:52:49 PM »

@Vayra

Great! :D

(that was quick!)

Thanks for making it all compatible from your end :)

I'll update Exerelin with a bug/compatibility fix over the next few days; I want to give people a little bit of time to dredge up any issues.
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TimeDiver

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.4 (new version 9/24/2013) Exerelin compatible!
« Reply #95 on: September 24, 2013, 10:01:15 PM »

You'll need to do some light editing of Exerelin at the moment to fully integrate it. Specifically, put the following code into Exerelin/data/scripts/world/exerelin/ExerelinData.java where the other faction detection lines are:

*snip code*

And if you want to start with a Kadur ship, the following code into Exerelin/data/scripts/plugins/CharacterCreationPluginImpl.java where the other starting ship options are:

*snip code*
Just to confirm; do end-users still have to comment out (using the '#' sign as a prefix) the 'modPlugin' line in this mod's mod_info.json to have it play nice with Exerelin, or did your changes to VayraModPlugin.java take care of that by itself?
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Vayra

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.4 (new version 9/24/2013) Exerelin compatible!
« Reply #96 on: September 25, 2013, 02:25:34 AM »

Just to confirm; do end-users still have to comment out (using the '#' sign as a prefix) the 'modPlugin' line in this mod's mod_info.json to have it play nice with Exerelin, or did your changes to VayraModPlugin.java take care of that by itself?

My changes should take care of that so you don't have to. At the moment, you will have to do the edits I posted to the Exerelin files, but in future releases that shouldn't be necessary either and both mods should work together automagically if both are activated. (Thanks, Zaphide!)
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Kadur Remnant: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6649
Vayra's Sector: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=16058
Vayra's Ship Pack: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=16059

im gonna push jangala into the sun i swear to god im gonna do it

NikolaiLev

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.4 (new version 9/24/2013) Exerelin compatible!
« Reply #97 on: September 25, 2013, 04:05:26 PM »

So, in the absence of keptin's IFed and Uomoz's Sector, I've made my own little compilation of mods and this is one of them.  I was exploring each mod's ships in the game and I took a gander at these ships in a base, and almost instantly I saw things I liked.  More and more exploration led me to the conclusion that this is, so far, my second favorite faction.  Fast yet ridiculously unmaneuverable ships with a relatively low tech curve, not to mention corvettes!  I think my most favorite thing has got to be missile-based anti-missile point-defense.  That's just awesome in every way; the Sling is one of my favorite things out of the mod.  Combining them with Swarmers has got to be the neatest way to defend a ship.

That being said, I'm afraid some things are a little out of balance.  Largely the ballistic weapons; they're just far too good.  The medium railguns can easily punch through armor thanks to their high damage at a high range, and don't have an especially high flux impact.  The coilgun is similarily good against shields.  The light railgun array is a little more reasonable, but all these weapons have far too high a projectile speed.  The small ballistic weapons benefit unduly from all the above as well.

I'm not sure how BalanceSuite works, but it doesn't seem to quite be perfect.  Then again, game balance is far more than just numbers.

As for how to nerf them (assuming you agree), that's up to you, depending on the flavor you want to give them.  You could keep their ridiculous effectiveness and simply nerf their flux cost, making them inefficient.  The smaller weapons are more reasonable at 9 op each, but they're still far too efficient for their range, and track too well.  The medium ones could use an increase in OP at the very least.  I'm not even sure about the large weapons, but I suspect they should be handled similarily as however you choose to handle them in general.

I also have mixed feelings on an LRM weapon being available for small missile slots.  I feel they deserve far less ammo, or Javelins in general should get a damage nerf.  But I don't perceive them nearly as problematic as the ballistic weapons.

Criticisms aside, keep up the fantastic work!  My only other feedback would be the recommendation of some more unique ships, especially utility ships like the Hauberk (and I'm still not quite sure what the EWAR field does, aside from increase friendly ranges; I expected it to jam missiles and mess with enemies somehow).

Oh, and P.S.: I love the Targe.  It actually makes an amazing brawler when you slap some heavy autocannons and annihilator rockets on it.  Though I feel being able to put extended shields on it is a little abuseable.  On the other hand, its lowish OP capacity means that's not terribly viable, considering I don't even have large missile weapons in its slots.
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Darloth

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.4 (new version 9/24/2013) Exerelin compatible!
« Reply #98 on: September 25, 2013, 04:31:28 PM »

Track too well?

Have you tried fighting something up close with these guns (especially the Large ones)?

Sure, at long range they're great, but against a lasher or something right up in your face I can hardly get them to bear on the target, let alone track... plus, they're frozen in low-speed traverse until they reload.
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Turdicus

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.4 (new version 9/24/2013) Exerelin compatible!
« Reply #99 on: September 25, 2013, 05:52:39 PM »

Hey Vayra, just played a session with the Kadur in Exerelin and it was wunderbar! I have so much fun piloting your ships, I find that if I play carefully nothing can stop me. That's a good thing; of course more balancing can always be done, but many times a mistake with trajectory will present your bum to the enemy for a good long while before you can turn around (now you're screwed!). I like it a lot, so keep up the good work.
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Vayra

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.4 (new version 9/24/2013) Exerelin compatible!
« Reply #100 on: September 25, 2013, 08:38:26 PM »

So, in the absence of keptin's IFed and Uomoz's Sector, I've made my own little compilation of mods and this is one of them.  I was exploring each mod's ships in the game and I took a gander at these ships in a base, and almost instantly I saw things I liked.  More and more exploration led me to the conclusion that this is, so far, my second favorite faction.  Fast yet ridiculously unmaneuverable ships with a relatively low tech curve, not to mention corvettes!  I think my most favorite thing has got to be missile-based anti-missile point-defense.  That's just awesome in every way; the Sling is one of my favorite things out of the mod.  Combining them with Swarmers has got to be the neatest way to defend a ship.

That being said, I'm afraid some things are a little out of balance.  Largely the ballistic weapons; they're just far too good.  The medium railguns can easily punch through armor thanks to their high damage at a high range, and don't have an especially high flux impact.  The coilgun is similarily good against shields.  The light railgun array is a little more reasonable, but all these weapons have far too high a projectile speed.  The small ballistic weapons benefit unduly from all the above as well.

I'm not sure how BalanceSuite works, but it doesn't seem to quite be perfect.  Then again, game balance is far more than just numbers.

As for how to nerf them (assuming you agree), that's up to you, depending on the flavor you want to give them.  You could keep their ridiculous effectiveness and simply nerf their flux cost, making them inefficient.  The smaller weapons are more reasonable at 9 op each, but they're still far too efficient for their range, and track too well.  The medium ones could use an increase in OP at the very least.  I'm not even sure about the large weapons, but I suspect they should be handled similarily as however you choose to handle them in general.

I also have mixed feelings on an LRM weapon being available for small missile slots.  I feel they deserve far less ammo, or Javelins in general should get a damage nerf.  But I don't perceive them nearly as problematic as the ballistic weapons.

Criticisms aside, keep up the fantastic work!  My only other feedback would be the recommendation of some more unique ships, especially utility ships like the Hauberk (and I'm still not quite sure what the EWAR field does, aside from increase friendly ranges; I expected it to jam missiles and mess with enemies somehow).

Oh, and P.S.: I love the Targe.  It actually makes an amazing brawler when you slap some heavy autocannons and annihilator rockets on it.  Though I feel being able to put extended shields on it is a little abuseable.  On the other hand, its lowish OP capacity means that's not terribly viable, considering I don't even have large missile weapons in its slots.

You might like to note that Heavy Maulers deal equal DPS to Twinned Assault Coilguns at equal range for less flux/second.  ;) For the Twinned Heavy Railguns I understand the criticism a little more, given that the closest equivalent is probably the Hypervelocity Driver (equivalent DPS but some of it as EMP, much less flux, 1 more OP, better accuracy, less range). I feel like it's still within the bounds of vanilla balance, but it's the one weapon I feel like might need a more significant nerf. I think I might have to make the medium ballistics turn slower -- this would do more to cement them in place as long-range support weapons, help to emphasize the lack of maneuverability on Kadur ships, and provide a balancing factor that I could apply to both medium ballistic weapons so as to not ruin the current homogeneity they have while also not making the Twinned Assault Coilgun useless as I feel like it's in a pretty good balance spot right now. The small mounts might catch some of the same, too. I don't think I'll be changing the large weapons much -- comparing the Gauss Cannon and the Tachyon Lance to the Demolisher seems perfectly fair, and the Redemptor deals considerably less DPS than other large ballistic high-explosive weapons but has the benefit of range.

As for the VLRMSs, the medium-sized one deals less DPS than the Pilum for the same OP with the benefit of firing four missiles (each much less effective than a Pilum LRM, hence the reduced DPS) instead of three. The small mounts are half as effective, and at 6 OP cost more than a rack of Harpoons or as much as a rack of Atropos Torpedos. That said, I actually intended to make all VLRMSs only have ammo for 10 volleys like the Pilums do -- the current ammo counts are actually a mistake left over from when I had them firing 3/6/12 missiles in older versions of the mod. Oops! That'll be fixed in the next release.

Thanks for all this detailed feedback, though! I'm definitely taking it all into consideration, and I'll keep striving for vanilla balance. I'm glad you're liking the mod!

p.s. The EWAR field jams enemy everything -- in the sense that it reduces their weapon and sensor ranges by as much as it boosts yours. :) At this point there aren't any new ships that I'm actively working on, but I do keep an eye out for interesting systems or empty design space, so if something catches my fancy a new hull or two might come out.

Hey Vayra, just played a session with the Kadur in Exerelin and it was wunderbar! I have so much fun piloting your ships, I find that if I play carefully nothing can stop me. That's a good thing; of course more balancing can always be done, but many times a mistake with trajectory will present your bum to the enemy for a good long while before you can turn around (now you're screwed!). I like it a lot, so keep up the good work.

Thank you! I'm glad you're enjoying it. And that is exactly the main weakness the Kadur are supposed to have, so I'm glad you've noticed it too.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 08:40:24 PM by Vayra »
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Kadur Remnant: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6649
Vayra's Sector: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=16058
Vayra's Ship Pack: http://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=16059

im gonna push jangala into the sun i swear to god im gonna do it

NikolaiLev

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.4 (new version 9/24/2013) Exerelin compatible!
« Reply #101 on: September 26, 2013, 01:20:15 AM »

You might like to note that Heavy Maulers deal equal DPS to Twinned Assault Coilguns at equal range for less flux/second.  ;) For the Twinned Heavy Railguns I understand the criticism a little more, given that the closest equivalent is probably the Hypervelocity Driver (equivalent DPS but some of it as EMP, much less flux, 1 more OP, better accuracy, less range). I feel like it's still within the bounds of vanilla balance, but it's the one weapon I feel like might need a more significant nerf. I think I might have to make the medium ballistics turn slower -- this would do more to cement them in place as long-range support weapons, help to emphasize the lack of maneuverability on Kadur ships, and provide a balancing factor that I could apply to both medium ballistic weapons so as to not ruin the current homogeneity they have while also not making the Twinned Assault Coilgun useless as I feel like it's in a pretty good balance spot right now. The small mounts might catch some of the same, too. I don't think I'll be changing the large weapons much -- comparing the Gauss Cannon and the Tachyon Lance to the Demolisher seems perfectly fair, and the Redemptor deals considerably less DPS than other large ballistic high-explosive weapons but has the benefit of range.

I'm not really too concerned about the coilguns; I suppose that's not a big issue.  But, compared to the heavy mauler, the Coilguns have a much faster projectile speed.  This is a problem with the Railguns vs. Hypervelocity Driver.  This does affect balance, and I feel it makes them too good as enemies can't dodge the shots like they can with their vanilla counterparts.  It's also worth noting that I generally perceive the heavy mauler as a little too powerful (it's almost always better than the Assault Chaingun, but it might also be that way by design, by virtue of being higher tech).

A turn rate nerf would be fine, but I also feeling slowing projectile speeds by 20% or more would also bring them in line with vanilla weapons.

That said, I hope you're going to have a harsh talk with the Small Ballistics, because I feel those are the most ridiculously overpowered weapons.  At that projectile speed, range, damage, and efficiency, they're just far too good, even for 9 OP (only 1 more than a light needler, which isn't nearly as effective).

The biggest thing I can tell you is that, as a player who wants to do well, I can use railguns (any size) to chop through armor, even against heavier vessels.  One small railgun (not an array) can demolish the armor of a Lasher, much less several.  For a kinetic weapon, this just isn't right.  This may actually have to do with how armor absorbs damage; it seems like simply having more damage lets you get through armor better than if you had equal DPS with several smaller projectiles.  This also relates back to the heavy mauler seeming better than the assault chaingun even up close, though this could very well be me being off my rocker.

Point is, the 9OP railgun is just too good.  I think projectile speed might not be accounted for in balancesuite, or not accounted heavily enough, because it's a big deal.  It's why (I believe) beam weapons deal soft flux to shields; instant transmission.  Given a choice between a Heavy Autocannon (vanilla) or the 9OP railgun, I'd choose the latter, every time.  And it can be put on a small mount.  That's a huge deal.

As for the VLRMSs, the medium-sized one deals less DPS than the Pilum for the same OP with the benefit of firing four missiles (each much less effective than a Pilum LRM, hence the reduced DPS) instead of three. The small mounts are half as effective, and at 6 OP cost more than a rack of Harpoons or as much as a rack of Atropos Torpedos. That said, I actually intended to make all VLRMSs only have ammo for 10 volleys like the Pilums do -- the current ammo counts are actually a mistake left over from when I had them firing 3/6/12 missiles in older versions of the mod. Oops! That'll be fixed in the next release.

Fair enough.  A slight nerf is all I wanted; ammo ought to be fine.  Though I still think the small LRMs should get even fewer missiles (note that at 1 OP more, the Javelins have far more ammo than a harpoon; with only a slightly lower projectile speed and damage these are a far better option even for close-range HE damage).

p.s. The EWAR field jams enemy everything -- in the sense that it reduces their weapon and sensor ranges by as much as it boosts yours. :) At this point there aren't any new ships that I'm actively working on, but I do keep an eye out for interesting systems or empty design space, so if something catches my fancy a new hull or two might come out.

Not bad!  But as much as I hate tearing your mod up, I feel this could take some looking at as well.  It's powerful, and that's cool (the Hauberk is a destroyer with mediocre hardpoints, railguns notwithstanding) but it should have a larger drawback than merely disabling its shields; the fact it increases your range and decreases theirs is a huge swing in power.  The enemy AI isn't smart enough to focus it down, so I feel it should also have a relatively high flux generation, and/or make it disable weapons as well.  Problem with that being allowing the Hauberk AI know when to use it and when not to.  But I'm sure you can think of something.

P.S. If it makes you feel any better, the only other mod I've "abused" to this extent was keptin's IFed, and that's because I loved it.  It's just a form of affection, you know?   :D

P.P.S. The mod's interceptors seem to be really poor at being interceptors.  This is a fair tradeoff given they have kinetic weapons (which makes them amazing support craft) but I think this could use some looking at.  A weapon that had decent range, high burst damage but low DPS would suit the faction quite well.  Problem is, it'd be balanced for fighters but it'd be stupidly good as PD.  So, maybe give it short range ala the Vulcan Cannon, with its damage frontloaded in a long, potent burst which an equally long cooldown between bursts.

P.P.P.S. (Darn, keep forgetting!)  Martyr drones just seem far too ineffective.  It's a dangerous thing to ask, but buffing martyr cannons just a liiiiittle bit would be nice.  They are basically energy mortars, which are ineffective in every other way (but the concept is cool!)

OH MY GOD I KEEP THINKING OF THINGS (This actually happened with IFed too, now that I think about it!)  The Jackal deserves a buff to its peak performance time!  While it fits with what it is, it just renders it far too ineffective and deserves to be able to stick around and contribute what little it can.  It's a cute little guy and I'd like to use it more, but I just can't justify it; my other frigates (especially Hyenas and Vultures) are about as fast and are just as good for capping points.

Also I should've gushed about how much I love you for adding carrier frigates because I love carrier frigates and they need to be more common!  Alright, hopefully this will be the last edit to this post.

Oh, and One Last Thing: I might make my own faction at some point.  I don't know if there's general policy for this, but I'm wondering if you'd mind if I copied the Sling ABM for it!  I've already expressed my love for it, and I might still end up making my own missile-based anti-missile weapon, but in general I like the idea of mods having non-vanilla weapons in common and I wish it was more common.  You'd get credit, of course!   ;D
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 01:32:20 AM by NikolaiLev »
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HELMUT

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.4 (new version 9/24/2013) Exerelin compatible!
« Reply #102 on: September 26, 2013, 06:07:24 AM »

The thing about Kadur LRMs is not their power. It's that they are very easy to boat. Civilians ships can be fitted with a bucketload of those and you can field a bucketload of civilians ships... I played with a fleet integrally made of Siroccos and Djinns class. The Mistral is just far too squishy to be effective, i always lost one or two of them because they are bumping with my own ships during the deployment phase, and Djinn is better as a tanker and missile boat in every aspect.

With my "Itano circus" style fleet, i was able to stomp everything in the game, save for the Kadur judgement fleet. I also always have a Hauberk class staying behind to provide the radar bonus, i'm not sure however if the range bonus apply to missiles. Also i wonder, i know their bonus don't stack, but are they nullified when your Hauberk is against another Hauberk?

So yeah, nerfing the small LRM would be good to avoid boating your entire fleet with them.

I haven't played much (yet) a ballistic oriented fleet. But as NikolaiLev said they seems very strong now, nerfing a bit the turning speed of the guns as well as the projectile speed would be good.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 06:11:41 AM by HELMUT »
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Runoved

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.4 (new version 9/24/2013) Exerelin compatible!
« Reply #103 on: September 26, 2013, 08:20:38 AM »

Thanks for interesting mod. Separately pleased integration of original fraction not only with original, but also with other mods in the form of four brisk systems . As pleased division of fraction into two conflicting parties that allows at the same time and to be on friendly terms with the main fraction, and to try the new ships as opponents. From the ships separately I pleased Dolfin. Against appearance of mods with trading I want to suggest to add fast transport of the average size, like clipper. It would seem to me not bad fitted into line of ships this fraction.
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HELMUT

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Re: [0.6a] Kadur Theocracy v1.1.4 (new version 9/24/2013) Exerelin compatible!
« Reply #104 on: September 26, 2013, 08:52:57 AM »

I just noticed something about the Mirage system. Some colors in the background are a bit too bright and because of this it can be difficult in combat to see the weapon arc. The big red line in particular cause some problems.

Spoiler
[close]

Not gamebreaking but still annoying.
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