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Author Topic: Overtuning frigates  (Read 7311 times)

Lucax

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2013, 12:51:10 PM »

Well I'd rather have an average frigate than an unreliable one. If upgrades would have downsides, they'd better not cost much...
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2013, 01:00:02 PM »

What if Combat skills were more effective on smaller ships?

Capital gets 50%
Cruiser gets 100%
Destroyer gets 150%
Frigate gets 200%

So, at +10% damage currently for the attribute itself, would get +20% for frigates, but only +5% for capital ships. Would apply to all the damage related bonuses, but not to the mobility bonuses. Unsure about flux.

Or, alternatively, base it on fleet point size, to avoid the hyperion getting frigate level bonuses considering it's cost, power, and fleet point size.

Am trying to write a mod to do this, but the variables being passed into the update function don't seem to be entirely valid.
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

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Lucax

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2013, 11:53:08 PM »

What if Combat skills were more effective on smaller ships?

Capital gets 50%
Cruiser gets 100%
Destroyer gets 150%
Frigate gets 200%

So, at +10% damage currently for the attribute itself, would get +20% for frigates, but only +5% for capital ships. Would apply to all the damage related bonuses, but not to the mobility bonuses. Unsure about flux.

Or, alternatively, base it on fleet point size, to avoid the hyperion getting frigate level bonuses considering it's cost, power, and fleet point size.

Am trying to write a mod to do this, but the variables being passed into the update function don't seem to be entirely valid.

I think it would be best that the bonuses depend on ship size. Making it depend on multiple factor would be impossible to balance.

That's definetely a good idea. Still, there should be something else that is not skill point dependent, just so that you don't get the best frigate in the game by just leveling.

And I wouldn't worry too much about the Hyperion. The only serious advantage it has over other frigates right now, is that it's the best to hit and run. It won't be pointless either, I think this change will bring it closer to other frigates.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2013, 12:14:24 AM by Lucax »
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2013, 07:34:54 AM »

What if Combat skills were more effective on smaller ships?

Capital gets 50%
Cruiser gets 100%
Destroyer gets 150%
Frigate gets 200%

So, at +10% damage currently for the attribute itself, would get +20% for frigates, but only +5% for capital ships. Would apply to all the damage related bonuses, but not to the mobility bonuses. Unsure about flux.

Or, alternatively, base it on fleet point size, to avoid the hyperion getting frigate level bonuses considering it's cost, power, and fleet point size.

Am trying to write a mod to do this, but the variables being passed into the update function don't seem to be entirely valid.

I think it would be best that the bonuses depend on ship size. Making it depend on multiple factor would be impossible to balance.

That's definetely a good idea. Still, there should be something else that is not skill point dependent, just so that you don't get the best frigate in the game by just leveling.

And I wouldn't worry too much about the Hyperion. The only serious advantage it has over other frigates right now, is that it's the best to hit and run. It won't be pointless either, I think this change will bring it closer to other frigates.

Two things there you might have missed.
One, It is using EITHER Ship size, OR Fleet cost. Not both. Hence, either bonus or loss depending on hull size, OR bonus/loss depending on fleet point cost. Also, bonus or loss, compared to current effect. It will still give +stats regardless.
Two, It applies ONLY to your piloted ship. This, to make piloting a smaller ship, which requires more skill and so on, and is more mobile, fall off less as you get more and larger ships. Makes the piloting skill more useful.

Hyperion has, like, 15 fleet points to others getting 3 - 7, I think. Its more than quite a few destroyers, hence it almost doesn't belong. However, after playing with it for a while, I agree that the Hull Size increased boost it is is probably more appropriate.
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters. Perfectly harmless, until you put one in your mouth and light it on fire

Lucax

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2013, 06:48:37 AM »

One, It is using EITHER Ship size, OR Fleet cost. Not both. Hence, either bonus or loss depending on hull size, OR bonus/loss depending on fleet point cost. Also, bonus or loss, compared to current effect. It will still give +stats regardless.

Yeah sorry, I misread that part.

Anyway, making the Combat skills line useful is one thing. Making player frigate as useful as capitals is another. You have to spend a lot of money to buy a capital, so you should have to when you want to buy a frigate that is as good. And overtuning is the only way I figured to do that.

I just hope some talented modders will (can?) make it happen some day.
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Ranakastrasz

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2013, 09:23:37 AM »

One, It is using EITHER Ship size, OR Fleet cost. Not both. Hence, either bonus or loss depending on hull size, OR bonus/loss depending on fleet point cost. Also, bonus or loss, compared to current effect. It will still give +stats regardless.

Yeah sorry, I misread that part.

Anyway, making the Combat skills line useful is one thing. Making player frigate as useful as capitals is another. You have to spend a lot of money to buy a capital, so you should have to when you want to buy a frigate that is as good. And overtuning is the only way I figured to do that.

I just hope some talented modders will (can?) make it happen some day.

Yea. Combat skill is kinda intended to make the player's battle actions more significant, at least from what I see. Piloting a capital ship is rather less exciting, due to pitiful speed, and so many weapons autofire is required.

If it were possibly to *Buy* Frigate Specific hull mods or weapons, that might also solve the problem. As in, they are more expensive, easily bumping you up to Capital tier. Costs like 20-50k each, and are items which are lost/gained when added/removed to a hull.

Alien Geometric Fabrication: -10 OP                                                 // Almost like it is bigger on the inside
Flux Super-conduits : 0 OP, +200 Flux Dissipation, +4000 Flux Capacity  // Null resistance when transferring energy.
Hardpoint Upgrade   : 0 OP, Small to Medium. Medium to Large.            // Attached weapon is scaled down, and glows with power. It is warped to fit in a smaller space.

// Oh, and these are all volitile upgrades, so the ship explodes more violently on death. Twisting space and handling extra power is not the safest thing ever.
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I think is easy for Simba and Mufasa sing the Circle of Life when they're on the top of the food chain, I bet the zebras hate that song.

Cigarettes are a lot like hamsters. Perfectly harmless, until you put one in your mouth and light it on fire

Vulpes

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2013, 11:31:34 AM »

One, It is using EITHER Ship size, OR Fleet cost. Not both. Hence, either bonus or loss depending on hull size, OR bonus/loss depending on fleet point cost. Also, bonus or loss, compared to current effect. It will still give +stats regardless.

Yeah sorry, I misread that part.

Anyway, making the Combat skills line useful is one thing. Making player frigate as useful as capitals is another. You have to spend a lot of money to buy a capital, so you should have to when you want to buy a frigate that is as good. And overtuning is the only way I figured to do that.

I just hope some talented modders will (can?) make it happen some day.

Yea. Combat skill is kinda intended to make the player's battle actions more significant, at least from what I see. Piloting a capital ship is rather less exciting, due to pitiful speed, and so many weapons autofire is required.

If it were possibly to *Buy* Frigate Specific hull mods or weapons, that might also solve the problem. As in, they are more expensive, easily bumping you up to Capital tier. Costs like 20-50k each, and are items which are lost/gained when added/removed to a hull.

Alien Geometric Fabrication: -10 OP                                                 // Almost like it is bigger on the inside
Flux Super-conduits : 0 OP, +200 Flux Dissipation, +4000 Flux Capacity  // Null resistance when transferring energy.
Hardpoint Upgrade   : 0 OP, Small to Medium. Medium to Large.            // Attached weapon is scaled down, and glows with power. It is warped to fit in a smaller space.

// Oh, and these are all volitile upgrades, so the ship explodes more violently on death. Twisting space and handling extra power is not the safest thing ever.

Alex has already stated that capital ships are supposed to be both rare and expensive in the finished game, so I think that any ship upgrades should follow this trend.  They could be cannibalised from captured capital ships (Imma stick a Paragon's power plant in my hyperion!) or found/acquired based on a similar level of rarity.  It may be wise to add a tier system to upgrades as well, so that player can yank upgrades from cruisers in order to hit a 'cruiser' level of strength.

An increased demand on supplies would require players to haul support ships with them, which may actually be a good thing.

As for balance issues?  I don't think that upgraded frigates would ever work, nor fit with the theme of Starsector (or at least, not what you're proposing).  It'd have to be a clear trade off, like severely reducing hull integrity and bolting extra engines on a ship for increased speed, which is more of an extension to the OP system.

Having said this, special player controlled fighters/making a player frigate act like a fighter (call it dogfighting?) could spice things up.  Carriers would still be required for resupplying, and the player could assign himself a few wingmen for tactical deathstar trench runs.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 11:37:23 AM by Vulpes »
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Lucax

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2013, 01:21:52 PM »

I can't see how it can't fit in Starsector. What I'm proposing are frigates, which are already in the game, only more powerful and expensive. The balance difficulty is at the cost in credits and CP.

If it means you have to fight bigger foes instead of buying the upgrades outright, then why not. You'd have to get a decent fleet and go kick some capital's ass, just like how it is right now for capturing ships and getting money, but you would also have the choice to recycle ships and use parts to upgrade your own, increasing the CP cost.

Unless you mean rarity as in a highly improbable chance of getting what you want? I've never been a big fan of this kind of mechanic. It's pretty much the same as playing a long time to get what you want, only it can be frustrating, while paying isn't.
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Vulpes

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2013, 03:22:26 PM »

I meant that certain frigates (*cough* Hyperion) are already capable of crazy feats- such as taking down entire fleets when given enough time.  This is mainly due to their speed and agility, which tend to make combat more enjoyable (when not simply performing hit and run tactics) and make them hard to kill.  At best the hit and run would become more aggressive (say if all buffs were offensive in nature), or the buff would turn these frigates into small capital ships (especially if the trade off is speed).

In any case larger ships like cruisers and capitals won't be as common in the finished game.
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Lucian Greymark

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2013, 04:44:00 PM »

Thought I'd put my 2c in.

I've found that some of the best ways to use frigates in game currently are as support roles for larger ships, for instance I have been known to take several wolf class frigates alongside an eagle or apogee all armed with a single tac laser, a graviton beam and as many shield buffs as I can throw at them. They often change the course of a battle in the middling area of the game just before I get my first capitol. But you raise a good point, being able to upgrade ships (Any ship mind you I would love to be able to further buff my capitols or make my fighters more durable) would be a stellar idea, it would add a considerable amount of depth to the game (not to mention length) as I currently find myself "finishing" the game when I have a capitol or two, after that things seem to get somewhat grindy and boring to level up my character. Having something else to grind towards (in terms of credits) would really expand my enjoyment of the game. And hey, if it means my wolf class frigates can suddenly equip a large energy weapon instead of thier other weapons then cool!
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Lucax

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2013, 02:59:41 AM »

I don't think it's a good idea to be able to mound large weapons on frigates for 2 simple reasons:
-It looks super weird. Really, the weapons take up more space than the hull on the sprite. Some weapons, and particularly weapons from mods, cover up the whole ship. Trust me, I tried.
-Even if we could shrink the weapon sprites somehow, it would be impossible to balance. Larger weapons generate too much flux for a frigate. Plus, it wouldn't fit the frigate gameplay, since a lot of large weapons have a much longer range than medium or small weapons, and they're meant to be used from a distance. A frigate that is meant for flanking and outrunning bigger ships equipped with long range weapons doesn't sound that good.

Anyway, big guns are meant to be on big ships, that's how I see it.

I meant that certain frigates (*cough* Hyperion) are already capable of crazy feats- such as taking down entire fleets when given enough time.  This is mainly due to their speed and agility, which tend to make combat more enjoyable (when not simply performing hit and run tactics) and make them hard to kill.  At best the hit and run would become more aggressive (say if all buffs were offensive in nature), or the buff would turn these frigates into small capital ships (especially if the trade off is speed).

In any case larger ships like cruisers and capitals won't be as common in the finished game.

Well with CR in mind the Hyperion won't be able to destroy entire fleets, not on its own. It will still have its agility and its neat gameplay. Upgrades that would make it more durable and deal more damage wouldn't change the way it's played (that much).
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Lucian Greymark

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2013, 03:13:16 PM »

I forget which mod it is but there is a frigate called the scarab which has a single large ballistic mount. It's terrible at actually being a frigate but I found it to be an excellent support ship if given a Hephaestus or gauss.
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rex

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2013, 03:09:32 PM »

I don't think it's a good idea to be able to mound large weapons on frigates for 2 simple reasons:
-It looks super weird. Really, the weapons take up more space than the hull on the sprite. Some weapons, and particularly weapons from mods, cover up the whole ship. Trust me, I tried.
-Even if we could shrink the weapon sprites somehow, it would be impossible to balance. Larger weapons generate too much flux for a frigate. Plus, it wouldn't fit the frigate gameplay, since a lot of large weapons have a much longer range than medium or small weapons, and they're meant to be used from a distance. A frigate that is meant for flanking and outrunning bigger ships equipped with long range weapons doesn't sound that good.


Looking stupid and being hard to play are good reasons for a play not to choose them. I don't think they are good reasons for a play not to be allowed to choose them.

Also, endgame with all the OP and flux skills, plenty of them would be manageable. Like, the big beam and pulse laser, needle storm, some of the low end balistic could all be functional.

Derpy bad ideas? Sure, but still fun. 
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