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Author Topic: Overtuning frigates  (Read 8641 times)

Lucax

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Overtuning frigates
« on: August 21, 2013, 07:37:04 AM »

Hi, I'm new here, but I've been following Starsector since 0.3x. I've played some similar games, when it comes to handling a ship, but also for general gameplay: Mount and Blade, obviously.

I don't think I'm the only one, but I don't like controlling big ships. Cruisers, capital ships, well, anything larger than a frigate. ;D

In early game, I usually enjoy the ride alone in pretty much any frigate, except the Brawler for some reason, so everything is fine.

In late game however, I feel quite useless in my tiny frigate. I always go for the Hyperion since it exists, and especially now that it can blink all over the place. To me it's the only correct choice, and I think it's a problem, but I'll get to that.

I try to invest in some combat skills, but I know they would be way more useful (or rather, way less pointless) if I were in a larger ship. And the "hit and run forever" tactic isn't going to work anymore, since CR is going to drop faster for frigates, if I recall correctly.

Everytime I feel like I'm better off investing in tech or leadership skills, since it would upgrade my frigate as much as the rest of my fleet.

That's where my idea comes in. I don't know if "overtuning" is the right name for it. It would almost be like refitting a ship, except instead of using OP, it increases the CP cost of the ship and it costs a great deal of credits, and you would be able to upgrade the ship more overall.

I don't really know what the best shape for it would be, but I think being able to directly increase dealt damage, and decrease damage taken by a percentage would be a good start. In fact, it could have similar effects to the combat skill tree. Maybe it would allow to change the ship system, or unlock more hull mods for more customization depth. Who knows, a Brawler with a phase teleporter might be useful after all...

Just increasing the OP of the ship would make it worse, as we would just rack up all available hull mods, throwing off the specialization aspect. Changing hardpoint and turret sizes and numbers would feel off too, for obvious reasons.

In short, it would allow to make any frigate (or any ship) as (or even more) powerful and important as a capital ship, while still played like the same ship, and costing about as much as a capital, both in credits and in CP. The cost, both in CP and credits, wouldn't be linear of course, but it wouldn't have a limit, unlike refitting. That's where all the balance difficulty is at I guess.

I think it would be something great to evolve with for players who don't like excessively big fleets, and in the future, trade and industry, or just players who have so much cash that they don't have a clue what to do with it.
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xenoargh

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2013, 08:03:11 AM »

I really like the idea overall.  

Having some sort of permanent level-up mechanics for individual ships that comes with an increased CR cost (and personally, I'd like to see it cost some money, too) sounds great.

Now, I'm not entirely sure that the whole CP-degrades-over-battle thing for Frigates is a great idea, personally, largely because of their importance to players who prefer a more arcade style of play.  But I've decided to be patient and see how it plays before deciding whether to mod it out of existence :)

Anyhow, I think that "overtuning" should be something that has diminishing effects per hull size, not just be applicable to Frigates.  

For example:

2/1.5/0.5/0.125 % more damage, per Overtuning level.

I'm not sure I agree with the OPs not being a bonus.  Frigates aren't suffering from all-being-the-same issues because they can now carry a lot more Hull Mods than they used to be able to do, due to Tech / Combat upgrades.  If anything, it's made them much more powerful and vital.  However, that's arguable either way.

Also, it would finally give Alex a use for that button currently marked "convert" :D
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 08:05:29 AM by xenoargh »
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Lucax

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2013, 08:27:31 AM »

Now, I'm not entirely sure that the whole CP-degrades-over-battle thing for Frigates is a great idea, personally, largely because of their importance to players who prefer a more arcade style of play.  But I've decided to be patient and see how it plays before deciding whether to mod it out of existence :)

I agree with that. Though maybe it's a good idea in general, I think overtuning should allow to remove this effect from the frigate to make it treated like a capital if it bothers the player too much. But as you say, we speak of it before having tried it ;D

Anyhow, I think that "overtuning" should be something that has diminishing effects per hull size, not just be applicable to Frigates. 

For example:

2/1.5/0.5/0.125 % more damage, per Overtuning level.

Yes exactly, I forgot to mention that. Also, cheaper ships of the same class would also have cheaper upgrades, to all make them useful as a player ship.

I'm not sure I agree with the OPs not being a bonus.  Frigates aren't suffering from all-being-the-same issues because they can now carry a lot more Hull Mods than they used to be able to do, due to Tech / Combat upgrades.  If anything, it's made them much more powerful and vital.  However, that's arguable either way.

I tried a lot to mod ships to have much more OP, it's the simplest change to try to make it match a capital, but it feels really unbalanced. Ships that are low tech get full coverage shields out of nowhere, and it changes the way they're played too much.
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xenoargh

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2013, 09:10:54 AM »

Quote
I tried a lot to mod ships to have much more OP, it's the simplest change to try to make it match a capital, but it feels really unbalanced. Ships that are low tech get full coverage shields out of nowhere, and it changes the way they're played too much.
I had kind of the opposite experience; it finally made a lot of Frigates actually viable, which was a big deal. 

I'm not really a fan of seeing a bunch of ships in a game like this that are a waste of FP (or, in the future, CR- but I don't see the "low CR for low-tech" idea as working all that well, if high-tech still stomps low without having to try all that hard).  But that's another issue and it's largely one of preference about balance and structure, which is why I mod things instead of arguing with Alex all day ;)
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Wyvern

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2013, 09:40:42 AM »

Hm...  I don't think a generic frigate upgrade mechanic is the right way to go - mostly because of the Hyperion, which really doesn't need the help.

However, I do think that there should be an alternative to the Hyperion for a player who wants to be flying a frigate; right now, the Hyperion is a sort of frigate-shaped cruiser in terms of both price and combat power - but it's the only such ship in-game.  I'd like for their to be at least one each low and mid-tech equivalent.

That said, I do think you're missing out by staying with frigates.  The Apogee in particular is a reasonably mobile cruiser; take a look at the variants I posted here.  And the Conquest... ahh, that's a wonderful ship once you have the skills to support it.  Don't even try to fly one without at least five points in tech, and preferably maxed tech and combat.  And you'll probably have to experiment a bit to get a build that works for you - Conquest loadouts, based on what threads I've read, tend to be highly individualized.  My preferred Conquest  build is 2x MIRV launcher (use these for short-range armor-breaking - unlike torpedos, you don't need to turn to face your target), 2x storm needler (put these in the front two large turret slots, since they're relatively short range), 2x mjolnir, 4x heavy needler, and burst PD in all the energy turret slots (including 2x heavy burst PD in the mediums - they should have the range to actually shoot down sabots on occasion).  Integrated targeting is of course a must-have, as is extended shields and accelerated shields and as many vents as you can fit.  If you're planning on fighting a Paragon, you'll also need something to deal with EMP damage (or be really paranoid about always keeping your shields on and aimed to catch the tachyon lance hits).
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Gothars

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2013, 09:46:37 AM »

Hi and welcome to the forum Lucax :)


And the "hit and run forever" tactic isn't going to work anymore, since CR is going to drop faster for frigates, if I recall correctly.

Yeah, and here's the problem.
As I understand it, it is a deliberate design choice to make a lengthy battle of attrition with fast ships impossible. Unfortunately for you, your preferred playstile will not get cut from the game accidentally, but cutting it is the whole point of letting frigates lose CR over time.

So obviously adding in a new way to allow lengthy pin-prick tactics with faster ships (and as I understand it, that lies at the core of your idea) is unlikely to make it into the game.


Mh... then again one could argue that the main problem about these tactics is that you are sometimes forced into them (E.G. if your frigate is intercepted by a bigger fleet), which can be very boring for a player who's uninterested in that playstile. If you could only apply them after deliberately designing your character and fleet that way in advance, it should be fine.

So, maybe allowing to buy very costly upgrades for reduced CR loss rate and some other benefits to carve out Starsector's arcady site could work. I, personally, wouldn't touch it, though. Mh, and it should be objectively weaker then building a proper fleet, lest people feel compelled to play that way.
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Lucax

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2013, 10:32:36 AM »

Quote
I tried a lot to mod ships to have much more OP, it's the simplest change to try to make it match a capital, but it feels really unbalanced. Ships that are low tech get full coverage shields out of nowhere, and it changes the way they're played too much.
I had kind of the opposite experience; it finally made a lot of Frigates actually viable, which was a big deal.  

I'm not really a fan of seeing a bunch of ships in a game like this that are a waste of FP (or, in the future, CR- but I don't see the "low CR for low-tech" idea as working all that well, if high-tech still stomps low without having to try all that hard).  But that's another issue and it's largely one of preference about balance and structure, which is why I mod things instead of arguing with Alex all day ;)

Increasing OP does make any ship viable, it's just a question of balance I guess. And it still has its limits, unless more hull mods get added.

Hm...  I don't think a generic frigate upgrade mechanic is the right way to go - mostly because of the Hyperion, which really doesn't need the help.

However, I do think that there should be an alternative to the Hyperion for a player who wants to be flying a frigate; right now, the Hyperion is a sort of frigate-shaped cruiser in terms of both price and combat power - but it's the only such ship in-game.  I'd like for their to be at least one each low and mid-tech equivalent.

That said, I do think you're missing out by staying with frigates.  The Apogee in particular is a reasonably mobile cruiser; take a look at the variants I posted here.  And the Conquest... ahh, that's a wonderful ship once you have the skills to support it.  Don't even try to fly one without at least five points in tech, and preferably maxed tech and combat.  And you'll probably have to experiment a bit to get a build that works for you - Conquest loadouts, based on what threads I've read, tend to be highly individualized.  My preferred Conquest  build is 2x MIRV launcher (use these for short-range armor-breaking - unlike torpedos, you don't need to turn to face your target), 2x storm needler (put these in the front two large turret slots, since they're relatively short range), 2x mjolnir, 4x heavy needler, and burst PD in all the energy turret slots (including 2x heavy burst PD in the mediums - they should have the range to actually shoot down sabots on occasion).  Integrated targeting is of course a must-have, as is extended shields and accelerated shields and as many vents as you can fit.  If you're planning on fighting a Paragon, you'll also need something to deal with EMP damage (or be really paranoid about always keeping your shields on and aimed to catch the tachyon lance hits).

Better and more expensive ship hull means more expensive upgrades, so the Hyperion would be upgradeable like other ships, just at a higher cost. But since the upgrades would be endless and cost more each level, that means it is less upgradeable than other ships, in a way. It's just a matter of balance here.

I have to say the Conquest feels the most agile and frigate-ish among the capitals. That being said, no matter how much you upgrade its speed or steering, it's still a huge target, and it can't flank bigger ships. But it's fine, because there is no such thing. :D

Mh... then again one could argue that the main problem about these tactics is that you are sometimes forced into them (E.G. if your frigate is intercepted by a bigger fleet), which can be very boring for a player who's uninterested in that playstile. If you could only apply them after deliberately designing your character and fleet that way in advance, it should be fine.

Exactly. I don't like fights that last forever, but I don't really like my own ship getting useless over time either. I do like flanking ships, making use of the extra agility etc. And the fact that the Hyperion, the best player frigate, has the best system to hit and run, just forces the player to do that, if he wants to be effective. I can't wait for the new update, I just hope that frigates don't go Excalibur to potato in less than five minutes.

And yes, this mechanic should really be reserved for late game. Getting an OP ship in early game would break the fine early game Starsector already has :)

Another idea I had, and maybe would be simpelr, was to make different effects in the combat skill tree depending on the size of your ship. This way the overall bonus to a fleet would be as useful if you're in a frigate as in a capital.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 10:39:23 AM by Lucax »
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xenoargh

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2013, 10:47:57 AM »

Quote
As I understand it, it is a deliberate design choice to make a lengthy battle of attrition with fast ships impossible. Unfortunately for you, your preferred playstile will not get cut from the game accidentally, but cutting it is the whole point of letting frigates lose CR over time.
Yeah, I really wonder if this is a good idea.  

As I said earlier, this is one of those things that's almost impossible to balance right; either it's too much, and Frigates are effectively nerfed to the point of uselessness (or at the least, the vast majority; the Hyperion, ironically, will feel the least pain) or it's so little that play is effectively as it always has been, except for the really high-end, uber-skill players not being able to kite fleets to death with one Frigate... so they'll use two, or three, or whatever.

Honestly, I think that the better solution is to treat the speed "problem" as an inherent part of how things work.  Big, lumbering fleets can't catch little fast ships; if you want to defeat them, buy fighters or small fast ships of your own, end of story.  If there aren't weapons that are sufficiently balanced to do consistent Frigate-kill, then change the weapons a bit and fix the problem.

Anyhow, we'll see how it all works out when we see how it works out.

Quote
So, maybe allowing to buy very costly upgrades for reduced CR loss rate and some other benefits to carve out Starsector's arcady site could work. I, personally, wouldn't touch it, though. Mh, and it should be objectively weaker then building a proper fleet, lest people feel compelled to play that way.
I can't see how it's anything but that way right now, so why did it need to be changed?  Not really understanding the logic here; this is already a game where the green-eyeshades approach has been emphasized over twitch, to my mind at least to its detriment (amongst other issues, it just makes high-end twitch much easier the way things work right now, and it can't ever really go any other way- any advantages from number-stacking invariably favors the high-skill player much more than the low-skill player- see what happens when you give a newbie a good Conquest build, for example).
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Gothars

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2013, 12:34:18 PM »

Quote
So, maybe allowing to buy very costly upgrades for reduced CR loss rate and some other benefits to carve out Starsector's arcady site could work.
I can't see how it's anything but that way right now, so why did it need to be changed?  

It is a problem, though. I have been in involuntary attrition-battles relatively often, or at least it feels often because it takes so long do get out of it. If you run into a superior fleet (or a battle goes awry) your choice is often between giving up on the last ~30 minutes of campaign progress or taking ~20 minutes to prick the enemy to death with a frigate and the ever same motions.

The latter option
- is no fun (to me)
- wastes player time
- makes the AI seem stupid and predictable
- feels like cheating (the AI can't do anything comparable after all)
- and through this, brakes immersion

And still, I feel like I have to to this dance because it is the best I can do for my campaign progress. With the new version the best choice will be to flee, which will likely be much more fun thanks to the new escape scenario.


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xenoargh

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2013, 02:09:08 PM »

I hear you (on the boring grind-it-all thing) and I agree with that.  I'm just a bit concerned here; if that's the core problem, it's an issue largely of balance; it didn't need a fundamental shift in what's useful.

If the Escape mechanics worked better, it'd probably be a bit less of a hassle. 

Then again, I'm of the opinion that Escape should force you to deploy stuff, and if that means you lose things, you lose things, and there is no safety net.  Getting caught by vastly-superior fleets should suck.  Figuring out how to escape anyhow should be awesome.

I think that the issue then becomes one of "why can't monster battleships handle a lowly Frigate", but that's balance stuff that can be fixed fairly easily.
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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2013, 03:26:00 PM »

I wouldn't worry about balance just yet, a quick look into (the depths of) the indev patch notes shows that alex did take it into account (at least somewhat)

Quote
-Increased top speed and acceleration for most frigates
Quote
-Adjusted deployment points values for all ships and fighter wings - reduced for a few frigates, raised slightly for larger ships

so frigs will be even faster cheaper to deploy (and cheaper still if you consider it in relative to larger ships)
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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2013, 03:27:41 PM »

It's basically impossible to evaluate how this works out until we get the new engagement system. From the description you should be able to needle with fast ships, but in a series of hit-and-run encounters rather than within a single very long encounter.
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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2013, 01:51:20 PM »

What if you could overclock your ship, but doing so had serious disadvantages?

For example, I overclock my Tempest. It moves faster and deals more damage, but bits of it overheat. I go for a long burn; I flame out.
I shoot my weapons too much, I have an ammunition explosion. Because I'm eking so much power from the ship's reactor the CR drops faster, but all the while I'm moving faster, hitting harder, but when I turn too sharply the g force ruptures a coolant tank and everyone on the lower decks of my ship freezes to death.

I think what is needed, is to find a way of weakening frigates when against a superior force, without it seeming arbitrary or unfair. A higher risk higher reward type system.
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icepick37

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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2013, 02:30:21 PM »

Well they have a CR drain unique to them. That's pretty weakening.
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Re: Overtuning frigates
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2013, 04:08:31 PM »

they also all got a huge boost in speed, that's not too bad either
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