Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[xenoargh]

For quite some time, I've been pretty dis-satisfied with the Phase mechanics, because while they are a form of "shield", they're a shield that:

1.  Does not allow DPS to be produced.
2.  Does not provide any protection when producing DPS, so a Phased ship, upon emergence, may just get crippled and be useless.
3.  Is totally dependent on good alpha strikes.

In player hands, the Phase Cloak ships are OK-ish; some players like them a lot.  I'm not going to argue that they're useless; rather that they're pretty useless vs. upgraded conventional ships for AI use.  When we're not just playing with a Frigate vs. smallish fleets, Phase Cloaks quit being all that cool.

I've tried out various things to improve them, and I'm pretty sure that this works.

1.  While Phase Cloaked, give ships greater speeds and maneuverability.  How much?  Enough to run away from things a tier down from you; i.e., Cruisers should out-run Destroyers but not Frigates.  This allows Cloaked ships to get boxed, but not as easily.
2.  Phase Cloaked ships should use Phase Teleporters as their System, preferably ones with a bit more range than usual (but a reasonable cooldown; I have mine set at 10 seconds).  This allows them to achieve what we all want most from Phase Cloak- the element of sudden tactical surprise.  Short of a Phase Cloak that grants true invisibility to LOS, this is the next-best thing.

There doesn't appear to be any way to allow Phase Teleporters a delay before "re-emerging"; this would be very useful, as it would increase the surprise value, especially if it was a bit random and the Ship did not exist to the AI until it emerged again. 

But as it stands, this combo makes Phase Cloaked ships act like "space submarines"- alpha-strike experts who can get in, do some serious good (like knocking out engines or delivering a fatal torpedo) then get out before they get crushed, while running away when they get boxed (just like real submarines do).  It also makes hunting them down a lot trickier than merely sitting and waiting for them to un-phase and then beating them to death; they have the choice of when and where to be in combat, making them genuinely useful in the hands of the AI.

[Ravendarke]

I am afraid some of those suggestions would make phase ships INCREDIBLY annoying... image last ship on the battlefield with phase ability, hunting it down would be nothing else then annoyance.

What about giving phase ship bonus to energy weapons damage for short time period after leaving phase, while effect will depend on time spent in phase?

[xenoargh]

That's kind of the point, really. 

If you want to kill them, it should be hard- they should be elusive and difficult to catch.  Like I said, not faster than everything- Frigates should get boxed by Fighters, Destroyers by Fighters and Frigates and so forth.  But it would make it more challenging.  And of course, the AI could just look at the odds and say that if you have a Wing of fighters and two Frigates and it's alone, it's time to run away.


I don't think that giving them a bonus would help much.  Either it's so weak that all their problems remain and it doesn't make much difference, or it's so OP that in player hands, Phase Cloak is another Phase Teleporter (the early, really ridiculous version).  Given that the only Strike energy weapons in Vanilla are very, very short-ranged, it's rarely wise to give them to Phase Cloak ships atm anyhow, at least if they're going to be used by the AI.

[PCCL]

i don't see killing phase ships after everything else are dead much of a problem, bottom line they don't have any shields so any damage they take is permanent

the speed buff while phased idea i do like, maybe with less flux generation to boot. teleporter is too much though I feel, since they can just phase out in between teleports

maybe they get speed buff and longer cloak (less flux), but there's a mechanic implemented to win without chasing down every single ship. The simplest that comes to mind being that if a side holds all points for a certain amount of time that side wins.

[naufrago]

I do agree that phase ships seem a little weak... I have another idea. It's 2am, though, so there's a decent chance it's a terrible idea with consequences I'm not properly considering.

Would it be unbalanced if phase ships could fire while cloaked? They already generate hard flux at a constant rate, which hinders their flux dissipation, so they wouldn't be able to sustain fire for terribly long. They'd have to be super careful not to overload themselves while doing so. It could be annoying to try to kill one, but it just means you have to bring something that can catch em.

Having trouble thinking of arguments against it, but I'm quite sleepy.

EDIT: Just thought of what would happen if they could fire missiles, torpedos, AM blasters, and bombs while cloaked. Probably a terrible idea. So maybe just allow anything but strike weapons/missiles?

[Gothars]

I am afraid some of those suggestions would make phase ships INCREDIBLY annoying... image last ship on the battlefield with phase ability, hunting it down would be nothing else then annoyance.

Absolutely true, but there's a simple fix for this: All phase ships should lose CR over time. Fast. Possibly only while phased. The mechanic is already in the game for frigates; the phase frigates probably have it anyway. It fits perfectly for the problem since Alex invented it for limiting the annoyance of elusive ships. And since phase ships are primarily alpha strikers anyway, it wouldn't hurt them too much.

In general I agree with xenoargh and I think the suggestions are a good way to really distinguish phase ships and better carve out their specific tactical role. Well, and make them more flashy.

Just one more addendum: If they lose CR only while phased, it would also be better to only give them the phase teleporter system while they are phased. (That would even allow them to have another system while un-phased, so the different phase ships don't become too similar in that regard.)

[Silver Silence]

I am afraid some of those suggestions would make phase ships INCREDIBLY annoying... image last ship on the battlefield with phase ability, hunting it down would be nothing else then annoyance.

All phase ships should lose CR over time. Fast. Possibly only while phased.

I think that would only serve to gimp phase ships to the point of near useless-ness. The Phase ships are already incredibly fragile and difficult to use effectively. They can't even stand to take glancing blows from most ships. They're so dedicated to their role as support ships that another more typical frigate such as a Lasher proves to be a challenge. Against their intended adversaries, the ass end of cruisers and capital ships, the 360 degree shields of a Paragon will absorb shots from a Phase frigate for quite some time, while a few casual shots from a Paragon's heavy blasters will annihilate the frigate. An Onslaught can simply turn to keep it's flank away from a Phase frigate and should the Onslaught be distracted enough as to allow a Phase frigate to move in, the only thing that would hurt an Onslaught is AM-Blasters which means getting right up close and having to take thumps from the Onslaught's rearward autocannons to do it. With such fragility, even kinetic autocannons can take lumps out of a Phase frigate.

One of the main advantages of a frigate is it's speed and maneuverability, but Phase ships lose this advantage when they enter P-space. They need to successfully go into phase, slowly move in, attack, do -damage-, go back into phase and finally back off to vent. I emphasized damage because again, a capital like an Onslaught or Paragon can do much more considerable damage in return, enough damage that it may not even be worth unphasing to attack. That wastes the opportunity.

The Doom, despite it's name, is anything but. It's a cruiser, so it's already far slower and upon entering P-space it has to creep along at speeds only marginally faster than it's target. The Doom -can- put out some good firepower, with racks of Reaper torpedoes, but flak can readily deny these attacks at anything bar jam-the-torpedo-tube-into-their-exhaust range. Much higher flux costs for entering P-space along with quicker flux build-up while in P-space mean that the Doom's attacks must be quick, though it's nature as a cruiser denies such possibilities. And like it's smaller brothers, it's non-existent armour means that few solid hits will ruin the Doom's ability to make attacks.


The AI also doesn't handle phasing all too well, anyone who's faced the Phase ships more than a couple times will have seen them flickering between P-space and realspace. This is often done while well out of range of attack, while still in range of the enemy's guns and all it serves to do is spike the Phase ship's flux even higher. Once near max flux, the Phase ship's actions become conflicted, it's no longer sure if it wants to remount the attack and just "go for it" or try to back off to vent. The Phase ship's low speed often means that this indecisiveness leaves it unable to clear the range of the enemy guns, it overloads, and pathetically dies.

[Gotcha!]

I'd rather see them disappear instead of having them buffed. Gawd, those ships are annoying. They don't deserve buffs at all, in my humble opinion.
What mod has those phase cloaking fighters? Blackrock? Aaargh! RAAAGE.

Alright, I am going to take a chill pill now.

[Silver Silence]

As Phase Fighters, they work quite marvelously. The Serket (Circuit?) Phase Fighters of the BlackRock DriveYards, or the F-171 Stealth Fighter of the ISA in Project Ironclads are great little fighters. As real ships though, they could do with some buffs instead of gimps. Perhaps I'm looking at it from the wrong direction.

Ships that are meant to move in on a distracted enemy and hit them for massive damage.
And yet they don't seem to be capable of that unless the enemy is crippled, in which case it doesn't really count as anyone can take potshots at an overloaded cruiser or capital.
But they're so dedicated to that role that they fumble at anything else.

[silentstormpt]

Actually that just makes the main point even undeniable, phased fighter are really effective do to its speed, something that larger phased ships lack, buffing the speed while phased should help ALOT its effectiveness

[Silver Silence]

Indeed, I thought of that too. Phase ships being more...... "in their element" while phased. I figured it'd be flamed to a crisp because everyone else is having quite the time with them, good or bad, whereas my time with them has just been one of near incompetence.

[xenoargh]

EDIT: Just thought of what would happen if they could fire missiles, torpedos, AM blasters, and bombs while cloaked. Probably a terrible idea. So maybe just allow anything but strike weapons/missiles?

This is one of the issues I keep seeing. 

If we want them to behave more like submarines (aside from the all-important being-invisible part) then we could give them the ability to fire weapons with a special flag, such as "can fire while phased". 

The weapons would only interact with n-space objects, and then they could be balanced, in terms of their usefulness.  Since the Phased ship can't be shot back, they'd have to produce enough Flux to make firing them a big choice- firing would reduce how long the ship could stay Phased.  But it'd be surprisingly-little Flux, I suspect, because of the way that Phase Cloak constantly does damage.

But if they cannot move faster than same-size ships, this isn't enough.  The Doom can't outrun other Cruisers, and can be boxed easily by Destroyers.  It's not a submarine; it's not an alpha-strike craft; it's a Cruiser with a huge hitbox, weak armor, smallish weapons loadout and a short time to Overload for its "shield". 

Again, I'm not saying that it can't kill stuff... but when I made the changes I've described, it made a huge difference.  Now the Doom is something I have to watch for and kill before it snuffs out my fleet, one alpha-strike at a time.  It makes them the "assassin class" of the game- great for backstabbing, poor for up-front fighting, but useful and dangerous in the hands of the AI.

[Nanostrike]

EDIT: Just thought of what would happen if they could fire missiles, torpedos, AM blasters, and bombs while cloaked. Probably a terrible idea. So maybe just allow anything but strike weapons/missiles?

This is one of the issues I keep seeing. 

If we want them to behave more like submarines (aside from the all-important being-invisible part) then we could give them the ability to fire weapons with a special flag, such as "can fire while phased". 

The weapons would only interact with n-space objects, and then they could be balanced, in terms of their usefulness.  Since the Phased ship can't be shot back, they'd have to produce enough Flux to make firing them a big choice- firing would reduce how long the ship could stay Phased.  But it'd be surprisingly-little Flux, I suspect, because of the way that Phase Cloak constantly does damage.

But if they cannot move faster than same-size ships, this isn't enough.  The Doom can't outrun other Cruisers, and can be boxed easily by Destroyers.  It's not a submarine; it's not an alpha-strike craft; it's a Cruiser with a huge hitbox, weak armor, smallish weapons loadout and a short time to Overload for its "shield". 

Again, I'm not saying that it can't kill stuff... but when I made the changes I've described, it made a huge difference.  Now the Doom is something I have to watch for and kill before it snuffs out my fleet, one alpha-strike at a time.  It makes them the "assassin class" of the game- great for backstabbing, poor for up-front fighting, but useful and dangerous in the hands of the AI.

I'd like specific phase-usable weaponry.



The current problem with the Phase Ships is that they don't know what they wanna be.  They're stuck somewhere in between the "Stay cloaked until it's time to strike" submarine style and the "Use the cloak as a short-term evasive tool" assassin style.  It kinda tries to be both right now and thus doesn't excel at any.


My little brother calls the Doom-Class Cruiser the "Suicide Box", because of it's slow speed, lack of shields, and HUGE, easy-to-hit, boxy shape.

[naufrago]

Hm... maybe make beams useable while phased... and make beams useful against high-tech ships while we're at it. Well, whatever, I should really just let that argument die since I highly doubt beams will ever be changed.

I do think phase ships should have some capability of firing while cloaked, though. Or have increased mobility as suggested in the OP. They just need something because right now they're really not worth the risk of deploying.

[silentstormpt]

How about making it invisible and only "showing" when in certain range of a enemy vessel, it would give the change to quickly try to defend against its alpha strike while removing the need for "speed buffs" or " phase-in weaponry" needed