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Author Topic: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?  (Read 14027 times)

Silver Silence

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2013, 07:55:01 AM »

So, we seem to have figured that Flux is a magical substance that greatly aids heat dissipation. Now how about how stressing the shields causes flux to rise? Or how too much flux, too much built-up heat, shorts out the entire ship for several seconds at a time?

The flux build-up of Phase systems, the purging of Flux into space to cool off and the need to control the overheating of weapons by siphoning it away into a capacitor of sorts before being purged all makes sense to me. Not sure how it works for shields, though. Shielding already generates phenomenal amounts of excess energy, evidenced by the continual flux generation of raised shields. But how does an impact cause even more flux to be spontaneously generated? I could understand if say, the flux built up over a moment, rather than instantly. I could wave that off as the shields re-harmonizing after impact and using more energy to do it.
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Axiege

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2013, 08:30:32 AM »

I think you've got it there. After an initial impact, which requires energy to be expended to counter the energy of the projectile, the shield must expend more energy to return to its normal state. I imagine a shield is not at full strength in all places, since a shield blocks any attack it would have to use as much energy keeping it up as it does to stop the most powerful single hit you can take. Shields would instead selectively harden where they are about to be hit, or harden on contact, of course expending energy to do so, and after the impact is finished and nullified the excess energy that had been sent to that point on the shield would need to go somewhere. Why does it go back into the ship though? Hrm, might be some problems with this theory of mine.

phyrex

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2013, 09:10:01 AM »

Enuff aboot the barrels, I strikethrough-ed it.

@Phyrex electronic ignitions are always (that I know of) when the bullets are stacked in the barrel.

The amount of energy needed for igniting primers is also very small, not enough to tax a massive reactor at all. This technique also yields extremely low ammo. If it was some kind of a caseless system where the primer encases the bullet , then primer is ignited electronically, I'm with you.  These kinds of systems are more costly to produce, extremely complicated, and all-in-all are less efficient for the small bonus of having lighter, more volatile ammo.

Electronic ignition barely requires any energy, therefore is not a goo explanation.

Not gonna argue if you feel that way but i'd like to point out that what you linked is the patented "metal storm" concept and is actually only the most popular technology to use electrically triggered ammunitions due to its particularly "exotic" mechanism.
Other more "normal" electrical triggering system exist, but are less popular as they do the same thing that current recoil-based mechanism do.
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Wyvern

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2013, 09:47:21 AM »

I'd always assumed Flux was a gravitic effect, in some way related to the pseudo-inertialess drives used by Starsector spacecraft, and probably also related to phase space.  Thus, even a basic ballistic weapon generates flux, because they all use gravitics to launch their projectile - and, unlike missiles, those gravitics are part of the gun rather than the projectile.
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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2013, 11:59:24 AM »

I'm also worried about the implications of Flux.

Are you just dumping heat energy into space and it magically goes away? Energy cannot be destroyed, so how it the flux not having any affect on the space around you?
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phyrex

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2013, 12:22:41 PM »

At this point, im tempted to say flux is just a deus ex alex used to create an interesting but all-encompassing gameplay mechanic.
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Flare

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2013, 06:31:14 PM »

So, we seem to have figured that Flux is a magical substance that greatly aids heat dissipation. Now how about how stressing the shields causes flux to rise? Or how too much flux, too much built-up heat, shorts out the entire ship for several seconds at a time?

Shields evidently turn kinetic energy into heat. If didn't have a way of turning the kinetic energy of a large round or onslaught smacking into the shield, the shield generator would probably fly right out the back of the ship.
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Thaago

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2013, 07:17:04 PM »

Err... how is flux at all related to heat? I don't think we know that. Its a thing that builds up when other things happen :P.

At this point, im tempted to say flux is just a deus ex alex used to create an interesting but all-encompassing gameplay mechanic.

I'm 100% certain thats what it is and I'm extremely happy that it is that way! I'd go on to say that most bits of game relevant tech in sci-fi games are gameplay elements wrapped in some sort of sciency phlebtonium to help with immersion.

My response to the OP:
Because flux as a mechanic ties together the shield defense and long duration weapon fire in a neat package; ballistics are part of that package. Ballistics having ammo is extremely rarely a factor and isn't at all in the short time scales that flux venting operates on, at least imo :)
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Silver Silence

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2013, 08:10:22 PM »

I'm also worried about the implications of Flux.

Are you just dumping heat energy into space and it magically goes away? Energy cannot be destroyed, so how it the flux not having any affect on the space around you?

Space is vast and I imagine Flux is some sort of tangible substance, given the loud gaseous hiss and the sound of rushing air when Flux is vented off. I assume, that like the gassy form it sounds like it takes, that it tries to fill the void and simply disperses.

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Flare

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2013, 08:21:57 PM »

Err... how is flux at all related to heat? I don't think we know that. Its a thing that builds up when other things happen :P.

Well it's a process of deduction. Heat exists likely in the game as well. Thermodynamics also exist in the game as well. One would not need a character in Skyrim to explicitly state Newton's theorems of gravity for the general audience to understand that's how it more or less works.
In the space game then, heat would be a serious problem on their ships as one ours, especially when there's miniature explosions every time you shoot a round out. We see flux venting out of the craft when flux is very high. Put two and two together and it's a very likely explanation for the heat problem.

At this point, im tempted to say flux is just a deus ex alex used to create an interesting but all-encompassing gameplay mechanic.

I'm 100% certain thats what it is and I'm extremely happy that it is that way! I'd go on to say that most bits of game relevant tech in sci-fi games are gameplay elements wrapped in some sort of sciency phlebtonium to help with immersion.

My response to the OP:
Because flux as a mechanic ties together the shield defense and long duration weapon fire in a neat package; ballistics are part of that package. Ballistics having ammo is extremely rarely a factor and isn't at all in the short time scales that flux venting operates on, at least imo :)

You misunderstand the OP. No one is disagreeing that Alex made these mechanics. He is asking the question why does this happen in the game. Or how to make these mechanics consistent in the game universe.

Take another example, suppose I ask a friend of mine after sitting down in the middle of a movie, why people are running around in other's people's dreams. Suppose he said to me, because the director made it so and he thought it would be entertaining. This does not answer my question. This would be a very poor synopsis of a movie.

The correct answer would be that they're running around each other's dreams using a machine that allows them to do so, and one of them is an agent that is specially trained to do this stuff. The person is asking about the consistency of the mechanics in the game.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 09:53:49 PM by Flare »
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xenoargh

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2013, 09:30:29 PM »

Venting:  An Engineering Perspective
Phaedron Daxis
Tri-Tachyon Captain Training Program, New York IX


While we do not understand much of the Domain's High Tech, the process of Venting in modern starships is quite ancient in origin and is fairly well-understood by field engineers.  This paper briefly attempts to explain and de-mystify "Flux" and provide information to novice Pilots wishing to someday captain their own starship.  For greater detail, book a consult with your Professor of Engineering (Starship Systems).


Flux is heat (also known as "thermal load".  All activities aboard a starship under weigh generate some heat; any machine or computer will generate a certain amount of waste heat during normal operations, which, absent any unusual load, is passively radiated away via radiators.

However, thermal loads during combat operations are considerably greater.  A machinegun produces quite a lot of waste heat per duty cycle, far too much to radiate away passively.  Other systems add far more load, and it cannot all be removed via passive cooling.  This is a direct threat to a starship's electronics, materials and personnel.  

Therefore, ships use Flux Vents, which are active cooling systems- they use heat pipes to transfer as much heat as possible into locations where it heats water and is released as steam.  The steam is then vented out into space under its own pressure, taking the heat with it.  

As an added bonus, the systems on most ships can use the thrust being generated this way to smooth out spin and alter a ship's velocity.  However, the net effect on velocity is negative; a starship with any Flux will accelerate more slowly than one without, because it's losing velocity to the effects of Venting.  Generally, the Domain engineers appear to have regarded turning Venting into +Y velocity with distrust, presumably because it made ships more prone to un-controlled behavior, so they accepted a net negative to forward acceleration instead.

Because this method of semi-passive Venting is designed to use low amounts of energy and not be disruptive to ship systems, it cannot always radiate enough heat.  Therefore, Flux Capacitors use a storage medium with a high heat capacity (typically, copper sheathing around water) to store heat until it can be vented away later.

These capacitors, however, have practical limits, and once again, the heat must be removed.  Therefore, combat spacecraft use a process called* "Crash Venting".  Crash Venting is far more complex and extensive than regular Venting; while in the middle of this process, water is being pumped through all of the capacitors, physically transferring the heat to Vents and flushing the hot water and steam out of the spacecraft.  This requires most major systems to shut down so that the pumps can operate as quickly as possible, as vibrations from equipment can cause vortices in the fluid flow and greatly slow it down or, worse yet, cause the pipes to explode under pressure.  However, at the end of the process, all of the heat has been transferred outside the spacecraft.

The process of Crash Venting is visually spectacular; huge jets of water droplets and steam rapidly form into ice crystals as they radiate heat into space, giving the ship the appearance of being surrounded by rainbow-colored clouds as light is diffracted by the droplets and making a lot of noise within the spacecraft while it's taking place.

Due to the nature of the process, if more Vents are present, Crash Venting can be performed more quickly, as they are used.  Certain individuals have put powerful pumps into their customized spacecraft, which also increase the speed at which this can be done, although this not recommended for pilots who don't understand the process of Crash Venting and cannot make the required modifications properly.

Hard Flux represents capacitors that are so full of heat that they are now requiring the use of some passive Venting to keep from increasing past their failure points.  This is a drain on the Vents and represents a narrowing of thermal capacity, which has dangerous consequences if ignored.  

When a ship has reached maximum Hard Flux levels, it is said to "overload", because all systems must shut down immediately, other than life-support and propulsion, until the heat levels have returned to safe norms.  The static discharges seen dancing across the surface of Overloaded vessels are the result of high-energy capacitors radiating into space in order to reduce the thermal load as rapidly as possible in order to save the ship from dangerous levels of heat build-up.  This often causes random static discharges, which are showy but quite harmless to properly-designed equipment.



*Totally made that up.  The rest of it's Science or vaguely-plausible ;)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:03:24 PM by xenoargh »
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phyrex

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2013, 11:12:48 PM »

Venting:  An Engineering Perspective
Phaedron Daxis
Tri-Tachyon Captain Training Program, New York IX


While we do not understand much of the Domain's High Tech, the process of Venting in modern starships is quite ancient in origin and is fairly well-understood by field engineers.  This paper briefly attempts to explain and de-mystify "Flux" and provide information to novice Pilots wishing to someday captain their own starship.  For greater detail, book a consult with your Professor of Engineering (Starship Systems).


Flux is heat (also known as "thermal load".  All activities aboard a starship under weigh generate some heat; any machine or computer will generate a certain amount of waste heat during normal operations, which, absent any unusual load, is passively radiated away via radiators.

However, thermal loads during combat operations are considerably greater.  A machinegun produces quite a lot of waste heat per duty cycle, far too much to radiate away passively.  Other systems add far more load, and it cannot all be removed via passive cooling.  This is a direct threat to a starship's electronics, materials and personnel.  

Therefore, ships use Flux Vents, which are active cooling systems- they use heat pipes to transfer as much heat as possible into locations where it heats water and is released as steam.  The steam is then vented out into space under its own pressure, taking the heat with it.  

As an added bonus, the systems on most ships can use the thrust being generated this way to smooth out spin and alter a ship's velocity.  However, the net effect on velocity is negative; a starship with any Flux will accelerate more slowly than one without, because it's losing velocity to the effects of Venting.  Generally, the Domain engineers appear to have regarded turning Venting into +Y velocity with distrust, presumably because it made ships more prone to un-controlled behavior, so they accepted a net negative to forward acceleration instead.

Because this method of semi-passive Venting is designed to use low amounts of energy and not be disruptive to ship systems, it cannot always radiate enough heat.  Therefore, Flux Capacitors use a storage medium with a high heat capacity (typically, copper sheathing around water) to store heat until it can be vented away later.

These capacitors, however, have practical limits, and once again, the heat must be removed.  Therefore, combat spacecraft use a process called* "Crash Venting".  Crash Venting is far more complex and extensive than regular Venting; while in the middle of this process, water is being pumped through all of the capacitors, physically transferring the heat to Vents and flushing the hot water and steam out of the spacecraft.  This requires most major systems to shut down so that the pumps can operate as quickly as possible, as vibrations from equipment can cause vortices in the fluid flow and greatly slow it down or, worse yet, cause the pipes to explode under pressure.  However, at the end of the process, all of the heat has been transferred outside the spacecraft.

The process of Crash Venting is visually spectacular; huge jets of water droplets and steam rapidly form into ice crystals as they radiate heat into space, giving the ship the appearance of being surrounded by rainbow-colored clouds as light is diffracted by the droplets and making a lot of noise within the spacecraft while it's taking place.

Due to the nature of the process, if more Vents are present, Crash Venting can be performed more quickly, as they are used.  Certain individuals have put powerful pumps into their customized spacecraft, which also increase the speed at which this can be done, although this not recommended for pilots who don't understand the process of Crash Venting and cannot make the required modifications properly.

Hard Flux represents capacitors that are so full of heat that they are now requiring the use of some passive Venting to keep from increasing past their failure points.  This is a drain on the Vents and represents a narrowing of thermal capacity, which has dangerous consequences if ignored.  

When a ship has reached maximum Hard Flux levels, it is said to "overload", because all systems must shut down immediately, other than life-support and propulsion, until the heat levels have returned to safe norms.  The static discharges seen dancing across the surface of Overloaded vessels are the result of high-energy capacitors radiating into space in order to reduce the thermal load as rapidly as possible in order to save the ship from dangerous levels of heat build-up.  This often causes random static discharges, which are showy but quite harmless to properly-designed equipment.

*Totally made that up.  The rest of it's Science or vaguely-plausible ;)

This got to be one of the best explanation ever. I suggest we make a thread and vote this up as official lore
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gauntelakor

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2013, 04:20:19 AM »

Venting:  An Engineering Perspective
Phaedron Daxis
Tri-Tachyon Captain Training Program, New York IX


While we do not understand much of the Domain's High Tech, the process of Venting in modern starships is quite ancient in origin and is fairly well-understood by field engineers.  This paper briefly attempts to explain and de-mystify "Flux" and provide information to novice Pilots wishing to someday captain their own starship.  For greater detail, book a consult with your Professor of Engineering (Starship Systems).

....................

*Totally made that up.  The rest of it's Science or vaguely-plausible ;)

+1 to that, got to be the best mechanic explanation I have ever seen for a game.

Although if we are using water to get rid of the heat then every single ship also need a way to create water or capture it in large quantities from space (and I don't think that is feasible). On the other hand, using exotic or made up liquids to do this would just raise more questions than it answers, so water is a good way to do it imo.
One thing to note is that spaceships here run on infernum(or maybe I remembered wrong) and therefore don't need to split water for hydrogen fuel leaving all the water for crew and flux purposes. But this would still cause ships to run out of water after some time, even a single extended battle could drain a ship, this could be represented by a new mechanic(bad idea) or ties in with combat readiness(better idea).
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xenoargh

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2013, 12:39:41 PM »

You'd need a lot less water than you'd think; water can store a terrific amount of heat and it's one of the few things that can be safely manipulated in all of its normal states without really special engineering problems, plus it's non-toxic and has a neutral pH.

IRL, the main problem with water is mass, but in a future like Starsector where everybody has (insert exotic energy-producing tech here) to push mass around it doesn't matter that much.  It gives a convenient lore-ish reason for most Fighters not having much Flux Capacity or Shields, though; they can't afford the mass budget they'd need for the water they'd have to carry around for cooling.

Anyhow, I don't think we get a "vote on lore". 

If Alex wants to use it, though, it's 100% fine with me; I thought it was fun to try and explain it all away and it makes some sense, which is more than most technobabble in sci-fi ever does :)
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Wyvern

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Re: Ballistic weapons generating Flux?
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2013, 01:02:13 PM »

Hm.  Personally, I'd prefer a more hand-wave-y explanation - while flux-as-heat makes some sense, there are also some very clear spots where it doesn't - like the crackling lightning when you overload, or why overload duration is based on damage of the hit rather than going away if-and-only-if flux levels are "safe", or why energy weapons deal more damage when flux levels are high, or the whole hard flux / soft flux distinction, or how it interacts with the zero flux speed boost.  For me, it's easier to maintain suspension of disbelief when presented with a quasi-magical* "flux does this stuff and we don't really understand it" explanation than when presented with a more physics-based explanation that still has some holes in it.

Especially when we already know the ship engines function in a quasi-magical manner; there's no real-world tech that matches what we see in-game (engines remaining lit even when the ship is stopped; rear-mounted engines that nevertheless can propel a ship backwards or sideways; flat limits on top speed; not to mention the visual effects of engines on a phase cloaked ship...)

* I use "quasi-magical" as a shorthand for "predictable but not understood" - for example, prior to Newton's theory of gravity, the motion of planets in the sky would have qualified as quasi-magical - very predictable, but nobody quite knew why.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.
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