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Author Topic: Hyperspace  (Read 54126 times)

Cycerin

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2013, 07:09:08 AM »

EV and Ares were fantastic. Ares was a completely groundbreaking game bogged down by terrible publishers, thank god Ambrosia managed to take over from the previous publisher eventually. And yeah in EV you could hail a ship and ask them to give you a portion of your fuel if you were stranded. Tough luck if you were in the middle of nowhere though.

I like the way gravity wells look on the map in hyperspace. The background should be some kind of funky color though :)
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Doom101

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2013, 07:56:33 AM »

mmmm hyperspace.....

I personally can't wait to establish death traps all over the place. :D

You receive a distress signal, the message is garbled, but it seems they are out of fuel and their communications array was damaged by an asteroid storm.

Then as you warp in to save the day, your met with hot plasma and bullets!

That's what you get for not listening to Ackbar.
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2013, 08:00:35 AM »

For hyperspace, does only movement consume fuel?  Like, could my fleet stand still and no use fuel in hyperspace?
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Alex

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2013, 09:31:06 AM »

In the event of a lack of fuel, would the game just speed up until you hit a gravity well (a la mount and blade captures)?

It doesn't speed up.


My thoughts:  there was a mechanic in Escape Velocity (IIRC), where if one ran out of fuel, one could make a hyperspace call for help if one had the credits, eventually getting a fuel tanker sent your way.  If you were out of credits, you died, with an explanation about drifting through space because you ran out of fuel and couldn't afford a tanker (i.e., telling players why their choice didn't work- this meant that from then on, players kept a minimal balance of credits to cover that dire necessity).

This is both realistic and a good way to prevent this kind of feature from becoming a major game-balance hassle.

If players have a billion credits and want to fly their giant fleet across the wide empty spaces of the galaxy, calling for fuel tankers at phenomenal costs (say, raise the price depending on how far you are from a solar system) ... I'd honestly say that it's both more realistic and more likely to be Fun to let them, rather than force them to build the All-Tanker Fleet.  If the price scaling was really reasonable, it'd also be a gentle landing pad for newbies figuring out the mechanics.

[EDIT]Also... since I know that we'll all want to mod it in (and it'll be popular, because it will provide a gentler mechanic) I'd strongly suggest having a Hull Mod that generates Fuel over time.  If Fuel's handled as a float internally, then Fuel generation / day can be helpful.  I'd also suggest having a Hull Mod that allows trading Fuel for Supplies over time.  Both would eat a medium-largish OP amount and be an effect that got more efficient with larger hulls.

This would, if set up correctly, allow for fleets with very long-range traveling capabilities, even indefinite ones, in exchange for significant reduction of their combat effectiveness.  Sounds like an exploration fleet to me.  The something-for-nothing can be explained away by lore- "Giant p-space interstitial meshes project Infernium-capturing field effects, allowing fleets to gather the minute amounts of Infernium that drift between the stars"... or whatnot.[/EDIT]
that's not entirely how i remember Escape Velocity.  I believe you always had a chance to hail the next passing ship in attempts to buy fuel from them.  I don't remember the game ever ending because you ran out of fuel?  Also, you could board ships and steal their fuel if you wanted to pick a fight.  I assume there will still be a chance of picking up fuel in Starsector after every battle?  Either way, that is why buying the 'ramscoop' was always one my first purchases ikn EV, to slowly recover fuel over time, and wouldn't mind something like that in Starsector.
Also, props for the mention of 'Ares' in this thread.  EV and Ares... aahhhh... the games of my rotten youth.  And it's that itch that Starsector strangly scratches for me.
Ok, enough nitpicking and reminiscing on my part.  i love learning where Starsector is heading and i love playing it much more!  (back to lurking...)


Right, that's sort of what I was referring to when talking about distress calls. I don't know about guaranteeing a refueling fleet, though. The feel of that doesn't mesh with how I see the Sector - that kind of safety net implies a level of organization well beyond what's there. Maybe deep in Hegemony space; certainly not while exploring somewhere. A fuel "delivery" via a pirate fleet coming in weapons hot seems more in character. As does an eventual "game over" screen if noone answers your call.

As to gradually getting fuel for free... it's a possibility, but that sounds pretty tricky to get right in terms of the OP cost. I'm also not sure that I like the idea of an exploration fleet being self-sufficient in fuel. To me, that could well kill the feel of exploration by eliminating one of the major risks.


A few questions, will there be a visual difference/gameplay between naturally occurring jump points versus artificial?

No. Maybe.

Are jump points discovered completely stable? ( limited fleet size/ amounts of jumps, before permanent/temporary collapse? )

That's very much a possibility. None of the current ones do, but that's definitely something I'm keeping in mind.

As a side note, jump points can have multiple destinations, and don't *have* to go from hyper to normal - both normal-normal and hyper-hyper jumps are possible.

Is it possible to enter a jump point even when you have enough fuel for certain portion of your fleet, but say a venture is somehow unable to squeeze in alongside, will it just deny entry or will there be ramifications?

Jumping doesn't actually consume fuel. Traveling in hyperspace does. You can't jump if you have 0 fuel, though.


On the visuals, a thought- maybe a visual depiction of gravity wells, where a blue / purple grid on pure black is distorted by the planet / stars according to radius?  Something bleak and TRON-ish, to emphasize that we're in a different realm, perhaps not one that normal human senses can perceive?

Yeah, definitely considering something like that, though maybe not quite to that extent. It's difficult to get something like that to look good alongside things that also show up in normal space, and that ideally also needs to serve as a combat background.

How many screens away will the next system be, approximately?

Interesting question; ultimately that's still TBD. Right now, the second system is about two screens away at 1280x800, maximum zoom. That feels about right - not too far, and not so close that you don't feel like you're traveling anywhere.

Any news on star-lanes for faster/cheaper hyperspace travel? A while ago there was some discussion about actively building lanes vs. self-forming through frequent use vs. no lanes at all.

No news. I do have some mechanics re: speed of travel in mind (and have for about 3 years - neat that they are actually getting close to being tried out!), but don't want to get into the details quite yet.


And yeah in EV you could hail a ship and ask them to give you a portion of your fuel if you were stranded. Tough luck if you were in the middle of nowhere though.

Yeah, that sounds like it would work pretty well.

I like the way gravity wells look on the map in hyperspace. The background should be some kind of funky color though :)

Purple not funky enough for you? :)


For hyperspace, does only movement consume fuel?  Like, could my fleet stand still and no use fuel in hyperspace?

Right, only movement. Ships have a "fuel per light year" stat, and right now one light year is 2000 pixels at default zoom, in hyperspace.
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2013, 10:38:59 AM »

Will there be a sort of "map" for hyperspace (by pressing TAB), or will you have no idea where you are?
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xenoargh

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2013, 10:59:43 AM »

Quote
Right, that's sort of what I was referring to when talking about distress calls. I don't know about guaranteeing a refueling fleet, though. The feel of that doesn't mesh with how I see the Sector - that kind of safety net implies a level of organization well beyond what's there. Maybe deep in Hegemony space; certainly not while exploring somewhere. A fuel "delivery" via a pirate fleet coming in weapons hot seems more in character. As does an eventual "game over" screen if noone answers your call.

As to gradually getting fuel for free... it's a possibility, but that sounds pretty tricky to get right in terms of the OP cost. I'm also not sure that I like the idea of an exploration fleet being self-sufficient in fuel. To me, that could well kill the feel of exploration by eliminating one of the major risks.
I'm totally fine with that- taking your chances on who, exactly, answers the call would be very entertaining. 

For example, placing a call to lure in Pirates would be very amusing, if we were allowed to do so at will; it'd be even funnier if a friendly showed up and said something like, "Hey, you guys already have plenty of fuel... why am I here, exactly?" and if a military fleet answered the call (they usually shouldn't, imo, unless there's nobody else around) and the player has fuel, then they should be pretty suspicious, perhaps even knock down player rep a bit.  After all, that kind of behavior is what a pirate would do, and it would feel appropriate to the setting.

If the AI also obeyed the same rules (or roughly, given the consequences) then players could answer emergency hails and do fuel deliveries.  Which leads into a whole 'nother topic, communications, but that's something for Suggestions.

On the fuel mod, I think that it doesn't need to give much fuel per day to be balanced yet useful.  Depends on how much fuel is used per day per ship.  Right now, it's all over the place, which is a particular area where the balance probably doesn't need that much fuzz. 

Like others have pointed out, it was one of the most popular pieces of ship equipment in EV for very good reasons- running out of fuel was frequently un-Fun.  There's nothing fun at all about slowly drifting around, powerless to change our destination; it's the kind of game event that needs adequate warning (I'd give it an audio cue, not just text splash) and when it happens, we should have some options.

Also, if the AI has to obey the fuel rules, it needs a good way to get out of a hole occasionally, otherwise players can manipulate enemy fleets to waste their fuel while chasing them and strand them in Hyperspace, amongst other exploits.  Right now, endlessly kiting enemy fleets to ram them into other fleets and thereby weaken them is just a minor toy- add the ability to strand them or even send them into a sun to be "crispy critters" gives things a very different dynamic.

Quote
Yeah, definitely considering something like that, though maybe not quite to that extent. It's difficult to get something like that to look good alongside things that also show up in normal space, and that ideally also needs to serve as a combat background.
Maybe tone the real-world objects with special values- planets get thrown to a contrasting color, say, yellows, ships to greens?  

From a visual-design standpoint, I figure that if mouse-over to tell you that you're pointing at a Desert world is still working, people can work out what to do even if given a little less explicit information.  I feel like the current glowy outlines are a bit thick and if the planets orbit, potentially very distracting, where a cleaner depiction of where the gravity wells are that distracts less from the experience might be helpful.

If nothing else, I'd go for a cooler palette on the big purple glow- tone it down some and push it further into blue.  It's good how it works as a clear signal that we're reaching a destination, but it's so bright and showy that it is distracting- the eye gets dragged to the bright edges, rather than the planets- and it will make it hard to make out fleets flying over it, imo.  A little adjustment there may nail it.
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naufrago

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2013, 11:28:07 AM »

Right, that's sort of what I was referring to when talking about distress calls. I don't know about guaranteeing a refueling fleet, though. The feel of that doesn't mesh with how I see the Sector - that kind of safety net implies a level of organization well beyond what's there. Maybe deep in Hegemony space; certainly not while exploring somewhere. A fuel "delivery" via a pirate fleet coming in weapons hot seems more in character. As does an eventual "game over" screen if noone answers your call.

As to gradually getting fuel for free... it's a possibility, but that sounds pretty tricky to get right in terms of the OP cost. I'm also not sure that I like the idea of an exploration fleet being self-sufficient in fuel. To me, that could well kill the feel of exploration by eliminating one of the major risks.

As other people mentioned, you could make it a bit like Escape Velocity (the original 2, at least) where the fuel generation is very slow (rather than nonexistent) if you have the appropriate item fitted on your ship. The time you spend waiting to generate enough fuel for a jump is punishing enough that you definitely don't want to get stranded if you can help it, and the fuel scoop uses up valuable space that could be used for more weapons/other stuff, but it gives you a safety net if you find yourself stranded for whatever reason.

If you make it a hullmod, it could generate a % of how much fuel it needs to jump 1ly per second, so it will always take a set amount of time before you can get back into hyperspace. Maybe make it so that it would take 1-2 weeks in-game time to generate enough fuel to get to the nearest star system, on average (would probably need some fine-tuning since you don't have distances nailed down yet). As for the OP cost, I'd say a significant % of its OP (maybe 30%?) would have to be dedicated to the process. That way it's something that you'd only want to install in an emergency.

If you make the wait time punishing enough, you also greatly increase the risk of running out of supplies. You could even make the process consume extra supplies (and maybe make the wait time shorter than I suggested). The conversion of supplies to fuel could be grossly inefficient, sort of like how scrapping a ship is probably less than ideal.

I feel that you could make the generation of fuel in a pinch punishing enough that it's not something you'd want unless you're desperate. In fact, making it a tradeoff between supplies and time seems like the best bet of making it work. Do I try to spend time and supplies to scrape together enough fuel to get to the nearest star system (potentially risking an accident if I run out of supplies), or do I try to consume a minimum of supplies and hope another fleet appears that can rescue me?

My thoughts:  there was a mechanic in Escape Velocity (IIRC), where if one ran out of fuel, one could make a hyperspace call for help if one had the credits, eventually getting a fuel tanker sent your way.  If you were out of credits, you died, with an explanation about drifting through space because you ran out of fuel and couldn't afford a tanker (i.e., telling players why their choice didn't work- this meant that from then on, players kept a minimal balance of credits to cover that dire necessity).

This is both realistic and a good way to prevent this kind of feature from becoming a major game-balance hassle.

If players have a billion credits and want to fly their giant fleet across the wide empty spaces of the galaxy, calling for fuel tankers at phenomenal costs (say, raise the price depending on how far you are from a solar system) ... I'd honestly say that it's both more realistic and more likely to be Fun to let them, rather than force them to build the All-Tanker Fleet.  If the price scaling was really reasonable, it'd also be a gentle landing pad for newbies figuring out the mechanics.

[EDIT]Also... since I know that we'll all want to mod it in (and it'll be popular, because it will provide a gentler mechanic) I'd strongly suggest having a Hull Mod that generates Fuel over time.  If Fuel's handled as a float internally, then Fuel generation / day can be helpful.  I'd also suggest having a Hull Mod that allows trading Fuel for Supplies over time.  Both would eat a medium-largish OP amount and be an effect that got more efficient with larger hulls.

This would, if set up correctly, allow for fleets with very long-range traveling capabilities, even indefinite ones, in exchange for significant reduction of their combat effectiveness.  Sounds like an exploration fleet to me.  The something-for-nothing can be explained away by lore- "Giant p-space interstitial meshes project Infernium-capturing field effects, allowing fleets to gather the minute amounts of Infernium that drift between the stars"... or whatnot.[/EDIT]
that's not entirely how i remember Escape Velocity.  I believe you always had a chance to hail the next passing ship in attempts to buy fuel from them.  I don't remember the game ever ending because you ran out of fuel?  Also, you could board ships and steal their fuel if you wanted to pick a fight.  I assume there will still be a chance of picking up fuel in Starsector after every battle?  Either way, that is why buying the 'ramscoop' was always one my first purchases ikn EV, to slowly recover fuel over time, and wouldn't mind something like that in Starsector.
Also, props for the mention of 'Ares' in this thread.  EV and Ares... aahhhh... the games of my rotten youth.  And it's that itch that Starsector strangly scratches for me.
Ok, enough nitpicking and reminiscing on my part.  i love learning where Starsector is heading and i love playing it much more!  (back to lurking...)

Growing up, I thought I was the only person who ever played those games. Glad to know I'm not the only person out there who loves EV and Ares.
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Wyvern

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2013, 11:45:07 AM »

EV was a bit of a different kettle of fish - though I *really* liked the map in EV:Override, which initially looked like a straightforward human alliance versus aliens map... but then you started to explore and there were several completely different things out there - ancient empires, embattled primitive races surrounded by hostile territory, pirate bases... fun stuff.

My suggestion for Starsector would be a bit different: instead of a hull mod that can generate fuel, I'd suggest having some way to "mine" fuel from certain types of gas giant.  Maybe this requires building an outpost.  Maybe it requires a big ungainly expensive-to-move refinery-ship.  Maybe it just needs some variant of mining drones... but has a tendency to lose some of them (thus costing you supplies) to high winds and lightning storms.

And the last suggestion I'd make is something EV had: if all else failed and you were really stranded, you could self-destruct your ship and launch an escape pod.  Instead of a game over, you just ended up at a non-hostile shipyard, short all of your cargo and fleet, but with a brand new shuttlecraft and your accumulated credits intact.
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xenoargh

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2013, 11:49:50 AM »

Quote
I feel that you could make the generation of fuel in a pinch punishing enough that it's not something you'd want unless you're desperate. In fact, making it a tradeoff between supplies and time seems like the best bet of making it work. Do I try to spend time and supplies to scrape together enough fuel to get to the nearest star system (potentially risking an accident if I run out of supplies), or do I try to consume a minimum of supplies and hope another fleet appears that can rescue me?
I like that idea.  Would give us some additional risks, but it would provide a way out of the hole.  Given that it would be a Hull Mod, having to install it on the fly while stranded, with the time cost in Supplies that entails, with an additional cost at the end of that process, would give us risk vs. waiting around (not to mention avoiding being "crisped").  

That depends on how long it takes to drift; if it took a long enough time that swapping Hull Mods and waiting made sense, then one hazard there is that newbies would need to be told, "hey, you have options here" so that they aren't going to wonder why they're constantly failing to Jump successfully and get discouraged.  

Another option, perhaps even more fun, is to present that Hull Mod at a fairly reasonable OP cost (15% +/-) but not allow swapping Hull Mods while in Hyperspace.  Then players have to plan a little; do they want to eat some extra Supplies but have insurance for their fuel needs, but face starvation and disaster if they arrive in an empty System?

Quote
And the last suggestion I'd make is something EV had: if all else failed and you were really stranded, you could self-destruct your ship and launch an escape pod.  Instead of a game over, you just ended up at a non-hostile shipyard, short all of your cargo and fleet, but with a brand new shuttlecraft and your accumulated credits intact.
+1; a final option is much better than, "gee, I just got stuck for 10 minutes in the middle of nowhere, watching my ships drift while we all resorted to cannibalism".  It points out that the core decision here is how long, exactly, it takes to drift anywhere; if you're drifting towards a sun, punching out (and, one presumes, saving your crews' lives) might be a reasonable soft landing in Iron Mode.

It'd be even cooler if, say, when your fleet's drifting towards a Sun, the game informed us with an ahooga and a UI saying "Your fleet is drifting towards a star and will be destroyed.  X Seconds to impact.  Do you wish to eject?"
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 11:52:13 AM by xenoargh »
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Gothars

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2013, 12:11:56 PM »

If we ever get an option to split our fleet, that could provide another nice option during a fuel crisis. Leave your main fleet behind and take a single frigate to the nearest resupply station. Come back with tankers.

That way you would only need a little bit of fuel to save your fleet. And if a fleet were to drop out of hyperspace before its fuel is completely consumed (say, ~98%) you would not even have to go through much trouble to fuel that single rescue ship. Would make sense, a fleet can't distribute it's fuel so well that all ships lose hyperspace travel the exact same moment, some are bound to have a few liters left.

Besides, for the owner of a big fleet it would be a nice throwback to the beginnings of a game to have your survival depend on a single little ship once more.
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BillyRueben

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2013, 03:10:19 PM »

I really hope there is going to be a "fuel gauge" somewhere on the screen. It would get old quickly to have to check your fuel levels in the fleet screen constantly.
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PCCL

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2013, 03:11:41 PM »

an indicator next to the accident chance bit would be nice
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silentstormpt

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2013, 04:02:32 PM »

1st Question (its 2 questions tho), is the background and those purple rings on the hyperspace changeable?

If true that pretty much means my Star Control 2 Hyperspace mechanics are 90% done, with only the "ask for help/fuel" needed to be added here, you really surprised me how it looked, u said it was close how the Star Control 2 worked but i didnt expect something this close

2nd Question, can multiple hyperspace regions be created (Quasispace needs to be added as another hyperspace)?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 04:04:11 PM by silentstormpt »
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Trylobot

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2013, 04:43:02 PM »

YEESSSsssssss
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Silver Silence

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Re: Hyperspace
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2013, 09:00:25 PM »

I like the idea of a hullmod that allows slow movement if out of fuel. It would be expensive in OP and not something that is automatically tossed on, like an ITU. The Bussard Ramjet or a Solar Sail springs to mind.
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