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Author Topic: [0.9.5a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.4/v5  (Read 470509 times)

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Re: [0.7.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v1.1.0
« Reply #735 on: September 20, 2019, 01:29:51 AM »

The new file is here.  Please notify me of any errors or serious balancing issues and I'll try to fix them.  Gotcha, assuming no one finds any serious errors in this one I feel this one could go on the front page, unless you'd like me to start a new thread for it.
Thanks! I'll put it in the main post of this thread. I used to think that creating a new thread would have been easier, but with DefiasOne's abandoned thread floating about, I doubt that's the case anymore.
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Dwarden

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.1
« Reply #736 on: September 20, 2019, 03:59:57 AM »

oh, when you mentioned that thread Gotcha!

when i look at the https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=10555.0

i noticed Bushi mentioned, was it merged with it ?

or what actually happened to Bushi https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=6413.0
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 04:18:57 AM by Dwarden »
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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.1
« Reply #737 on: September 20, 2019, 04:20:05 AM »

I'm not sure if DefiasOne ever got around to updating Bushi. I wasn't much here.
I'm going to assume that Bushi never got updated and is still stuck in 0.6.2a.
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XviZoR

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.1
« Reply #738 on: September 20, 2019, 04:59:33 AM »

Heyo, first, love that the Mod is back, its straight up one of my favorite Mods and one of the Big Three I was waiting to get updated ( The other being Approlight and Knights Templar ) and I found a teeeeeeeeny tiny little bug, the AI Core turn in is a little.... bonked? Went to turn in AI Cores and would've gotten 4 mil for 2 Gamma Cores and 12 Mil for 2 Beta Cores, aswell as like... 400 rep points.
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bombasticmori

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.1
« Reply #739 on: September 20, 2019, 06:28:56 AM »

In reply to some of the questions/issues:
1) the ships blueprint pacage is enabled and working, you also receive it on a nexerelin start. The weapons one is apparantly glitched, I'll try and fix it in the next version
2) about the tarii wing error, I'd recommend deleting and reinstalling the mod, just to be safe. That seems similar to an error I encountered when updating it, but it should be fixed by now
3) for ai cores...whoops, sounds like a misplaced decimal. Ill try to get a patch out for that soon
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Dwarden

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.1
« Reply #740 on: September 20, 2019, 09:04:18 AM »

sent you DM @bombasticmori, forgot subject , sorry :)
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Botaragno

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.1
« Reply #741 on: September 20, 2019, 09:44:35 AM »

WE'RE COMING HOME
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Some day the Conquest will be a viable capital..... some day....

Stuffwriter

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.1
« Reply #742 on: September 20, 2019, 01:41:09 PM »

I first want to say how much I really appreciate you taking up the task of getting this mod up to standard.

I've been play testing it, and I hope this information is useful to you. I've played nearly every mod extensively and have been at it for two years or so. Note that I have no idea how to do these things, nor how much work it would take, but I felt compelled to provide it regardless.

To do to get up to 9.1a standard
- Ship deployment costs need to be increased across the board
- Ship costs need to be increased across the board, especially the capital ships
- Core turn-in values need to be lowered (you already mentioned this)

My recommendations to get closer to vanilla balance
- The weapons are too powerful. Look at the efficiency values of flux/damage. Generally, a weapon loses efficiency to gain range. Armor penetration, accuracy, and rate of fire are other factors.
- The heavy laser does way too much damage. It should be toned down and its flux costs adjusted.
- Hiigaran ships seem to fit within the high-tech profile. Their prices, shield efficiency, armor, operating costs, and crew requirements should reflect that.
- Hiigaran missiles are too powerful
- A balance pass on some ships may be warranted. For example, the heavy missile cruiser has six heavy missile slots, 2 heavy kinetic mounts, and 6 medium kinetic mounts. This is quite excessive even without the missile mounts. If possible, the mounts should be shrunk to mediums. Even then, this ship would outgun literally every other vessel except for the dreadnought.
- The Dreadnought is far more powerful than any other ship I've seen. It flattens pandemoniums, paragons, karkinos, and orbital stations all by itself. This is fine... but it should cost a hell of a lot to field.
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bombasticmori

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.1
« Reply #743 on: September 20, 2019, 02:04:10 PM »

I first want to say how much I really appreciate you taking up the task of getting this mod up to standard.

I've been play testing it, and I hope this information is useful to you. I've played nearly every mod extensively and have been at it for two years or so. Note that I have no idea how to do these things, nor how much work it would take, but I felt compelled to provide it regardless.

To do to get up to 9.1a standard
- Ship deployment costs need to be increased across the board
- Ship costs need to be increased across the board, especially the capital ships
- Core turn-in values need to be lowered (you already mentioned this)

My recommendations to get closer to vanilla balance
- The weapons are too powerful. Look at the efficiency values of flux/damage. Generally, a weapon loses efficiency to gain range. Armor penetration, accuracy, and rate of fire are other factors.
- The heavy laser does way too much damage. It should be toned down and its flux costs adjusted.
- Hiigaran ships seem to fit within the high-tech profile. Their prices, shield efficiency, armor, operating costs, and crew requirements should reflect that.
- Hiigaran missiles are too powerful
- A balance pass on some ships may be warranted. For example, the heavy missile cruiser has six heavy missile slots, 2 heavy kinetic mounts, and 6 medium kinetic mounts. This is quite excessive even without the missile mounts. If possible, the mounts should be shrunk to mediums. Even then, this ship would outgun literally every other vessel except for the dreadnought.
- The Dreadnought is far more powerful than any other ship I've seen. It flattens pandemoniums, paragons, karkinos, and orbital stations all by itself. This is fine... but it should cost a hell of a lot to field.

This is all super useful information, i'll try making a pass at it this weekend and get something uploaded.  In the meantime, I fixed the AI core issue, you can get the new version here
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MeinGott

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.1
« Reply #744 on: September 20, 2019, 02:21:22 PM »

What a suprise, I remember playing with those ships in Distant Worlds :D I love the 3d feel, from the perspective the sprites are drawn with. I wonder if they were made as 3d models originally.
Its wonderful this is getting an update.
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Stuffwriter

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.1
« Reply #745 on: September 20, 2019, 03:05:02 PM »

Other specifics of problematic balance:

Weapons
- Pulsar beam is too powerful. It functions as PD and as strike. If massed, it negates the need for anything else. I recommend flagging it as PD and weakening it
- Hiigaran fighters are too powerful for their costs
- All hiigaran energy weapons are too efficient; they should have a flux cost increase. Note that most energy weapons are 1.2 or higher damage/flux ratio. The exception is continuous beam weapons that can do better than 1.0 in some cases.
- the short-range chain weapons (both explosive and kinetic) are too efficient

Ships
- Some of the ships have relatively low flux dissipation for their size, which can be frustrating to fly.
- The Vaahrok torpedo gunship's built-in torpedoes are ridiculously strong. A reaper torpedo does 4000 damage, the cho does 2500x2, and can fire 4 at once. The torpedo itself isn't really excessive damage, but the ammo count and the fact that the ship can mount 4 medium kinetic mounts with an attack speed increase makes this ship able to destroy a capital very quickly
- The sajuuk-kar laser on the dreadnought is oppressively powerful.
- The Kuun-lann missile cruiser has too many weapon mounts of too large a size for any ship. (I stated this already but putting it here for ease of access). 4 Medium, 6 small, and 2 large weapon mounts, even without the missiles, puts in the damage output of a battle cruiser. 6 heavy missiles makes it outgun small stations by itself.


Vanilla weapon balance:

Consider this low tech weapon. It doesn't do anything special, but as a consequence it's fairly efficient.

Arbalest Autocannon
700 range
150 damage per second
120 flux per second (.8 ratio, very efficient)
Poor accuracy, medium turn rate
8 Ordnance Points

Now consider this medium tech weapon:

Heavy Needler
800 range
250 damage per second
200 flux per second (.8 ratio)
Medium accuracy, medium turn rate
15 ordnance points

It's almost double the cost to mount it, it has the same efficiency, but it has substantially more damage output and a little more range. If you want a weapon to be efficient, it has to lose in other areas. Either in ordnance, overall damage output, range, accuracy, whatever.

This weapon is more specialized:

Hypervelocity Driver
1000 Range
138 Damage per second + 200 EMP damage per second
175 flux per second (1.27 ratio of non-emp damage)
Perfect accuracy, slow turn rate
13 ordnance points

This weapon trades damage per second for EMP, range, and accuracy.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 03:11:04 PM by Stuffwriter »
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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.1
« Reply #746 on: September 20, 2019, 03:13:26 PM »

In 0.6.1 these ships/weapons were a bit tougher/more damaging than anything vanilla, from what I recall.
I kinda liked it that way. But yeah, I imagine things are way off the charts now, so many updates later. ;D

I feel sorry to see you go through all of this, bombasticmori! Remember, you can always just shriek in terror and run away from all this.  ;)
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Stuffwriter

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.2
« Reply #747 on: September 20, 2019, 05:30:56 PM »

I think part of the problem is the huge number of weapon mounts.

The game has trended towards flux requiring very careful management, so most ships don't have very many mounts. The large capitals in this mod have substantially more mounts, and they're set up with wide firing angles. Probably a bit too much firepower for a single vessel to wield.

Maybe Alex can provide some equations or methodology behind how the devs decide weapon/flux values.
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bombasticmori

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.2
« Reply #748 on: September 20, 2019, 07:01:46 PM »

I was planning on studying the values for similar weapons for vanilla and a few other mods and see how they do it, then kind of fenangle things from there until something works.  Rebalancing stuff that I haven't personally coded is not my strong suit, but i'll do my best!  I have to do some car maintenance this weekend that may eat up my time but hopefully i'll have a build ready by Sunday
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Stuffwriter

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Re: [0.9.1a] Hiigaran Descendants v2.0.2
« Reply #749 on: September 20, 2019, 07:56:38 PM »

Your work is greatly appreciated.

Thank you!
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