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[hydremajor]

Another possibility would be

Beams could slowly drill past shields to impact the armor directly after a certain time...

What's the effect of that ?

Beam weapons become exceedingly usefull against high-tech ships simply because they have jack for armor and beams would be less efficient on low tech ships simply because they have genuinely more armor

Plus Beams as they are now barely do any damage to armor to begin with

in the end we'd end up with

Low Tech VS Low Tech = optimal engagement due to ballistic weapons dealing more damage to armor in general

High Tech VS High Tech = optimal engagement due to shields being pierced by beam weapons, provoking what little armor they have to melt away rather fast

Medium Tech = best of both worlds situation

[Reshy]

Most beams deal damage based on a one flux per second to a one point of damage a second ratio.  However most ships aside from Hedgemony have efficiencies above 1.0, this means it takes that much more flux to deal a point of damage.



A ratio of .8 requires you to spend 1.25 flux for each point of beam damage.

A ratio of .6 requires you to spend 1.66~ flux for each point of beam damage.

A ratio of .5 requires you to spend 2.00 flux for each point of beam damage.

A ratio of .4 requires you to spend 2.50 flux for each point of beam damage.


Any ratio below 1.0 makes beam weapons massively weaker as you have to 'out flux' them by that much more.  This is not helped by the fact that ships with the best shields also have the best flux dissipation.  Low-Tech ships generally have low venting and shielding, because of this beams are effective on them.  But the second you go against a ship variant that has Stabilized Shields/Hardened Shields/Maxed Vents you'll notice that beams become nearly useless against such ships.


Furthermore unlike other weapons which deal hard flux it deals soft-flux, that means that while shield efficiency does affect other projectiles it doesn't do anything to help the eventually buildup of hard flux and the inevitable need to drop your shields.  With beams however if you aren't dealing more damage than they're capable of venting they can literally keep the shield up 'all day.' 


Here's the maximum damage that some ships can possible do with beams.

Medusa:  Maximum Output 700 DPS to shielding, costing 450 Flux.
Wolf:  Maximum Output 500 DPS to shielding, costing 375 Flux.
Tempest:  Maximum Output 400 DPS to shielding, costing 150 Flux.

Now let's add Efficiencies.

0.8 Efficiency
Medusa:  Maximum Output 560 DPS to shielding, costing 450 Flux.
Wolf:  Maximum Output 400 DPS to shielding, costing 375 Flux.
Tempest:  Maximum Output 320 DPS to shielding, costing 150 Flux.

0.6 Efficiency
Medusa:  Maximum Output 420 DPS to shielding, costing 450 Flux.
Wolf:  Maximum Output 300 DPS to shielding, costing 375 Flux.
Tempest:  Maximum Output 240 DPS to shielding, costing 150 Flux.

0.5 Efficiency
Medusa:  Maximum Output 350 DPS to shielding, costing 450 Flux.
Wolf:  Maximum Output 250 DPS to shielding, costing 375 Flux.
Tempest:  Maximum Output 200 DPS to shielding, costing 150 Flux.

0.4 Efficiency
Medusa:  Maximum Output 280 DPS to shielding, costing 450 Flux.
Wolf:  Maximum Output 200 DPS to shielding, costing 375 Flux.
Tempest:  Maximum Output 160 DPS to shielding, costing 150 Flux.


Now let's say we're fighting a stock ship without weapons or hullmods or extra vents and see how much damage it takes to down their shield.

Mule:  90 Effective Dissipation with 3000 effective capacity.

Enforcer:  120 Effective Dissipation with 3333 effective capacity.

Hammerhead:  150 Effective Dissipation with 5250 effective capacity.

Sunder:  240 Effective Dissipation with 8125 effective capacity.

Medusa:  280 Effective Dissipation with 10000 effective capacity.


With standard weapons you simply have to deal damage equal to or greater than their maximum effective capacity.  However if you have beam weapons you have to factor in it's dissipation.  Let's see how long it takes 500 Beam DPS to overload shielding.


Mule:  7.317073170731707 Seconds

Enforcer:  8.771052631578947 Seconds

Hammerhead:  15 Seconds

Sunder:  31.25 Seconds

Medusa:  45.45454545454545


Notice how much it jumps as it goes up the tech ladder?  And this is without any modifications of any sort!

[PCCL]

I like the idea of beam leak damage, but maybe instead of time based we can just have beams ignore a certain percentage of shielding at all times. That'll make beams a great finisher weapon when a ship is almost down and stubbornly holding her shield against your attacks. Also increase its effectiveness against high-tech's by a ton

[Thaago]

I've held off on posting for a few day to think about this one. Summary: I don't know if this is absolutely necessary, but I think this is a good suggestion that would improve the game.

I completely agree that beams are disproportionally ineffective against high shield efficiencies and decent flux dissipation. It makes it so that even though they are supposed to be support weapons that little ships can use against big ships, long range kinetics are vastly superior as support. If you simply increase beam damage then they get overpowered against low tech (which they are pretty good against) while still sucking against high tech. I see three options.

1) Live with it. Beams will just suck against high tech shields. I'm ok with this, but its unfortunate because beams are cool. Also other people apparently really disagree with me on their other uses *shrug*.

2) Implement this suggestion. My gut reaction was strongly negative, but in retrospect I think that was mostly because I've read so many suggestions that are for homogeneity. I'm sorry that in a previous post I thought that was what you were saying; I get it now that you are trying to maintain the beam support niche. I don't like more special case rules, but it does address a problem.

3) Make beams deal hard flux. Then they get worse against high shield efficiency ships, but not disproportionally worse. This is the simplest rules wise, but I believe Alex tested it (and it worked this way early) and didn't like it. It also strongly encourages kiting because beams are long range and accurate. Kiting Tempests already annoy the crap out of me.

Thoughts on some other suggestions:
Gothars:

Mh, now I thought of a beam that does nothing but actively reducing the targets shield efficiency against all weapons as long as it hits. That would really be a pure support weapon.

I like this a lot. I worry just a bit about abuse, but as long as it doesn't deal any damage then it would be pure support... Can we do this via script? I think it would be possible.

Leak damage: This I don't like at all because its too much of a high tech killer, makes beam kiting ridiculously powerful, and is another special case rule. I also think that this would be an absolutely miserable thing to fight against as a player and would ruin a lot of the exciting finishes that happen. Who hasn't had that fight where they get dragged through the mud, but survives with like 12 hp? If the enemy has beams this will never ever happen.

[naufrago]

What I don't like is the idea of a general rule change for them. But thinking about it, it might actually work as a hullmod. There the game would have adequate room to explain what is happening differently. And you had the choice of equipping the mod against high tech fleets or disabling it against low tech.

Mh, now I thought of a beam that does nothing but actively reducing the targets shield efficiency against all weapons as long as it hits. That would really be a pure support weapon.

I'm fine with that as well. A hullmod that changes the nature of beams is actually a nifty little way of handling it.

More specifically @FloW, I think we have a different idea of "support" when it comes to beams. Most of them are decent at punishing ships that drop shields, but I feel their primary use is against shielded targets (EDIT: in addition to unshielded/overloaded targets, as you mentioned). They're meant to efficiently reduce the amount of flux the enemy has for firing their weapons.

I've held off on posting for a few day to think about this one. Summary: I don't know if this is absolutely necessary, but I think this is a good suggestion that would improve the game.

I completely agree that beams are disproportionally ineffective against high shield efficiencies and decent flux dissipation. It makes it so that even though they are supposed to be support weapons that little ships can use against big ships, long range kinetics are vastly superior as support. If you simply increase beam damage then they get overpowered against low tech (which they are pretty good against) while still sucking against high tech. I see three options.

1) Live with it. Beams will just suck against high tech shields. I'm ok with this, but its unfortunate because beams are cool. Also other people apparently really disagree with me on their other uses *shrug*.

2) Implement this suggestion. My gut reaction was strongly negative, but in retrospect I think that was mostly because I've read so many suggestions that are for homogeneity. I'm sorry that in a previous post I thought that was what you were saying; I get it now that you are trying to maintain the beam support niche. I don't like more special case rules, but it does address a problem.

3) Make beams deal hard flux. Then they get worse against high shield efficiency ships, but not disproportionally worse. This is the simplest rules wise, but I believe Alex tested it (and it worked this way early) and didn't like it. It also strongly encourages kiting because beams are long range and accurate. Kiting Tempests already annoy the crap out of me.

Thoughts on some other suggestions:
Gothars:

Mh, now I thought of a beam that does nothing but actively reducing the targets shield efficiency against all weapons as long as it hits. That would really be a pure support weapon.

I like this a lot. I worry just a bit about abuse, but as long as it doesn't deal any damage then it would be pure support... Can we do this via script? I think it would be possible.

Leak damage: This I don't like at all because its too much of a high tech killer, makes beam kiting ridiculously powerful, and is another special case rule. I also think that this would be an absolutely miserable thing to fight against as a player and would ruin a lot of the exciting finishes that happen. Who hasn't had that fight where they get dragged through the mud, but survives with like 12 hp? If the enemy has beams this will never ever happen.

I agree with a lot of what you said here, particularly the stuff at the bottom about kiting and leak damage.



Anyway, it's funny to me that some people defending beams keep saying that Graviton Beams need a buff. When I'm trying to craft arguments that beams need a buff against efficient shields, I have to craft them around the existence of the Graviton Beam because it's the best at what it does. No other beam comes close to its ludicrous efficiency. If I wanted, I could only focus on the Tac Laser or HIL because they're horrible against efficient shields in most circumstances, but the Graviton Beam almost always generates more flux in the enemy than the ship firing.

Imo, the Graviton Beam might even be too good at what it does, and would almost definitely need a nerf (probably increase flux cost to ~100f/s) with my suggestion (or with Gothars' suggestion). EDIT: Also, Tac Laser and maybe Phase Beam should also take a slight hit to their efficiency with the suggestions here. I think 7:8 damage to flux ratio would be best (EDIT: although with Gothars' hullmod suggestion, the retuning of the Tac Laser and Phase Beam probably wouldn't be necessary). HIL might actually need a slight buff to its efficiency even with this change, tbh (reduce flux generation to 200f/s, imo).

If we ignore the Graviton Beam, the other beams fare much, much worse against high-tech ships. 2-3 Tactical Lasers can shut down a stock Enforcer hull, but 5-6 are required against a Medusa. Not only that, but the Tactical Lasers will generate about 60% more flux in the ship firing than in the Medusa. 3 Tactical Lasers (!) can shut down a Dominator, but 6-7 are required against an Aurora and 7-8 are required against an Apogee. The gap only increases with more vents and/or stabilized shields.

[PCCL]

what if we give beams leak damage, but the leak will be converted to a fraction of its value and in EMP? Maybe only damage mitigated by shield efficiency will be applied as EMP (again, a fraction) to the hull. This way lower tech ships take less EMP damage but builds more flux, and high tech ships can have their firing pattern disrupted by a beam trained on them

(sorry, I'm playing through nexus tji again, really like the way they did beams, that's all)

[naufrago]

That could potentially be a problem with the new CR changes. Disabling weapons decreases that ship's CR, which could lead to kite and run tactics for beam ships.

From the patch notes:

• CR reduction due to combat, occurs after combat:
  • Per-ship deployment cost (higher of base deployment cost, or CR used up after peak readiness has passed)
  • Extra CR lost by retreating ships, but only if the engagement was lost
  • Extra CR cost for using missile weapons in combat, based on ammo remaining
  • Extra CR cost for suffering a flameout of [sic] weapons being disabled by damage

EDIT: The more I think about the hullmod suggestion, the more I like it. It solves my issues of wanting beams to be useful against high-tech targets and it gives a convenient way of explaining the mechanic. The description for the hullmod could be as simple as "Makes beams ignore shield efficiency." Potential drawbacks could be reduced efficiency or damage output, if necessary, but I think it would be fine just as a straight change.

I'm thinking the hullmod could be the 7 point reward for Applied Physics (bump down Advanced Optics to 5 points), or maybe a 10 point reward for Flux Dynamics. It should definitely be obtained from investing in a skill, though.

[xenoargh]

For people to see how beam weapons work with Hard Flux damage, here's a mini-mod.  All it does is enable this, no other balance changes to Vanilla.

After testing with this a bit, I really like it overall; it makes the Sunder relevant, the Shuttle less completely useless, the Wolf is very dangerous, a few other things.  But it also exposes some issues:

1.  The one thing beams should not have is range advantages over everything else in their class.  Equality's fine, but being able to kite with them indefinitely with Hard Flux damage is problematic, simply because they do not run out of ammo.  Advanced Optics becomes a big issue, because 200 su absolute ++ energy-weapon range boosts from player buffs is a biggie.  Or is it, in the context of player hero-ships and enemy fleets with FP to burn?  I guess it really depends on your POV about how the game should feel.

2.  It reminded me that there's literally nothing between Tac Lasers and HILs.  Why?  There's perfectly good, unused art for that spot, and it was needed even when they didn't do anything all that cool, simply in terms of OP efficiency.

3.  Graviton Beams may need a smallish nerf with this; a Sunder with three of them is a very efficient shield-killer and has 800 range, putting it outside practically any weapons Destroyers and most Cruisers can mount, other than missiles.  With HEF on, it's nasty.  That said, it was a nice, pleasant surprise to see the Sunder blossom from being player-only very specific glass-cannon into something that would be useful in the hands of the AI

4.  It reminded me that in Vanilla, there are practically no Fighters and only a smattering of Destroyers and Frigates that can even mount this stuff.  I haven't tested this with the Tri-Tach fighters yet, but I suspect it made them more OP than ever :/  I really feel like fighters are the worst of the balance issues; if we could field 6 Talons instead of 4, 3 Gladiators instead of 2, etc., then it would probably work out better, even with this change.  I feel like low-tech fighters are just fine being crappy; they just have to have enough numbers to be taken seriously.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[naufrago]

Non-beam energy weapons are shorter range than their ballistic counterparts to force high-tech ships into range of the enemy's weapons, else the high-tech ships would just kite them to death. The range of beams is similar to or longer than ballistic weapons. If you give hard flux to beams, it'll make kiting the optimal strategy, which is something to be avoided. Pretty sure that's the primary reason they do soft flux damage, to keep that sort of thing from happening while allowing high-tech ships to have long-range weapons of their own.

[xenoargh]

So just shorten their range a bit, or make the range of Ballistics longer?  I personally think that non-beam weapons should practically always have the edge on range; it's in keeping with the setting (a kinetic weapon's just as deadly a light-second away as it was when you launched it) and in terms of balance, it makes more sense.  Ballistics miss a lot; beams don't, and they have ammo problems.

[Reshy]

For people to see how beam weapons work with Hard Flux damage, here's a mini-mod.  All it does is enable this, no other balance changes to Vanilla.

After testing with this a bit, I really like it overall; it makes the Sunder relevant, the Shuttle less completely useless, the Wolf is very dangerous, a few other things.  But it also exposes some issues:

1.  The one thing beams should not have is range advantages over everything else in their class.  Equality's fine, but being able to kite with them indefinitely with Hard Flux damage is problematic, simply because they do not run out of ammo.  Advanced Optics becomes a big issue, because 200 su absolute ++ energy-weapon range boosts from player buffs is a biggie.  Or is it, in the context of player hero-ships and enemy fleets with FP to burn?  I guess it really depends on your POV about how the game should feel.

2.  It reminded me that there's literally nothing between Tac Lasers and HILs.  Why?  There's perfectly good, unused art for that spot, and it was needed even when they didn't do anything all that cool, simply in terms of OP efficiency.

3.  Graviton Beams may need a smallish nerf with this; a Sunder with three of them is a very efficient shield-killer and has 800 range, putting it outside practically any weapons Destroyers and most Cruisers can mount, other than missiles.  With HEF on, it's nasty.  That said, it was a nice, pleasant surprise to see the Sunder blossom from being player-only very specific glass-cannon into something that would be useful in the hands of the AI

4.  It reminded me that in Vanilla, there are practically no Fighters and only a smattering of Destroyers and Frigates that can even mount this stuff.  I haven't tested this with the Tri-Tach fighters yet, but I suspect it made them more OP than ever :/  I really feel like fighters are the worst of the balance issues; if we could field 6 Talons instead of 4, 3 Gladiators instead of 2, etc., then it would probably work out better, even with this change.  I feel like low-tech fighters are just fine being crappy; they just have to have enough numbers to be taken seriously.

Well IRL lasers are actually really short ranged, so it's possible to 'retcon' them into being shorter range.

[naufrago]

If you make beams deal hard flux and then make them have the same range as non-beam weapons, that really would be the definition of homogenization. At that point, the difference between beams and other energy weapons is almost purely cosmetic. The only real difference would be accuracy and tracking speed. They'd also cease to be support weapons.

Frankly, your suggestions more drastically change beams than mine.

[xenoargh]

Accuracy matters a lot.  So does not running out of ammo.  I guess it doesn't matter that much in Vanilla past the low end, since the bigger ships are just DPS-trading objects, but it can and should matter.  

The way they work right now doesn't make any sense; they're literally the only weapon system that can't Overload, which isn't documented or explained and it also puts them into a weird special-case with all sorts of real balance problems.  Hence why there aren't any serious beam builds for super-ships, other than as PD; even there, with that much Flux/Second, the fact that you can't push people into Overload with them is a biggie. 

Add in the fact that the higher the Soft Flux dispersion rate is, the more useless any given level of damage for a beam is.  It takes a lot of Mining Lasers to even register vs. any capship.  So lots of ships and a few fighters basically become worthless.  All this, because we're so worried about kiting?  Why not fix the core issue, by changing the range bands?

I'd rather have ballistics with longer ranges than beams for each major range band.  That would fix a lot of issues.

Beams would continue to be inefficient killers for Flux, like they are now, but they don't miss and don't run out of ammunition.  

Ballistics would be able to kite them, but most of them are inaccurate at their kiting ranges.  So you're trading ammo and statistical noise for certainty at that point, which is an interesting tradeoff.  If beams needed any further nerfing, just dropping their DPS/Flux ratio a bit would solve it.  It shouldn't be impossible to kite people to death with beams; it should just be a case of who you're fighting and whether they're armed to match the threat or not.

Anyhow, I'd try that code out before rushing to judgement; I think that this is mainly just some minor rebal to get the issues fixed, tbh.

[Histidine]

For reference, here are the ranges of selected ballistic and energy weapons:

Small
800: Light Needler
700: Railgun
600: Light Assault Gun, Light (Dual) Autocannon, Ion Cannon, Tactical Laser
500: IR Pulse Laser
400: Antimatter Blaster

Medium
1000: Heavy Mauler, Hypervelocity Driver
800: Heavy Autocannon, Heavy Needler, Graviton Beam
700: Arbalest Autocannon, Assault Chaingun, Phase Beam
600: Thumper, Heavy Blaster, Pulse Laser
500: Mining Blaster

Large
2500: Tachyon Lance
1250: High Intensity Laser
1200: Gauss Cannon
900: Hellbore Cannon, Hephateus Assault Gun, Mark IX Autocannon, Mjolnir Cannon
800: Storm Needler
700: Autopulse Laser, Plasma Cannon

TL;DR: While beams have longer range than pulse weapons, the only ones that actually outrange comparable ballistics are the Tachyon Lance and HIL.

they're literally the only weapon system that can't Overload

Yes, they can (try it in the tutorial). The only thing is that the AI will drop shields before that happens, but then the target is taking the hits on the hull, which removes the soft flux problem and also does things like open them up to missiles and EMP/subsystem damage.

EDIT: Also, in any case, limited frigate endurance in the next version should eliminate the kiting problem.

[xenoargh]

I'll test that (whether they can Overload without any Hard Flux pushing damage up).  I don't think they can, but I'll try it out.

Well, at least in the Basic Combat tutorial... uh...


So, er... you think he's going to Overload at all?  Ever?

I'll test the other tutorials; I didn't think Soft Flux ever allowed for Overload, though. Wrongo, when tested.

The lack of any beams in the mid category means there's a huge swath of stuff we can't really talk about for balance purposes; the HIL's 1250 range puts it into a really special category.

However, bear in mind that due to their Soft Flux damage, you run into issues when a small ship with Beams attacks a big one that are unique; a ship with 3 Tac Lasers will not ever overload anything that can shed 225 Flux.  Whereas if they're using anything else, including pulsed lasers, that doesn't happen.



OK, tested with the lrpdlaser super-buffed... it took a bit of testing because the AI drops the shields instantly when the incoming beam strike dps - flux dissipation > flux capacity or something, but apparently if beams DPS > flux, you can indeed overload with Soft Flux.  Was pretty hard to catch it happening, and in that case, the ship had some Hard Flux built up, but nowhere near Overload.

Must say that this is something you practically never actually see happen, though; the real loss is to the other ship's rate of overload from weapons use, which is a special case.  In most practical cases, you can just sit there, taking beam fire, and still be losing Soft Flux, then fire another alpha strike.  Anyhow, I've said my piece and I've fixed my mod so that it finally works like I thought it should from the start, so I'm happy whether it's changed in Vanilla or not