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[NITROtbomb]

well there is an idea true on the skill side of it the beam weapons get a lot less buffs than compared to that of projectile style weapons do. that might be the reason why, in the end game people think that beams are weak in comparison.


+1 for this idea

[FloW]

Similarly to missiles, I only use beams against armor/hull. Well, and to reduce the vent rate of the target. The EMP damage some of the beams do is excellent against any kind of ship. It slows fighters down, giving you additional time to kill them, or it shuts off enemy weapons. Also, the flux efficiency is second to none.
I have to admit though, that maybe the Graviton Beam could use some love.

But let's be honest here, a ship that's entirely based around beams probably doesn't work. Just like a ship that's entirely based around missiles. So I don't see what exactly the problem is. Beams have their reason for existence, and they can prove it too.

[Nanostrike]

Beams aren't an outright attack weapon.  They're a support weapon.  They're for keeping an enemy from being able to dissipate Flux while another ship hits then with anti-shield weapons to quickly max out their Flux and possibly overload.

And once the shields are down, they do a nice burn.  They're also excellent against fighters.  But as a straight-on attack weapon, they're just not meant to do the same as, say, Railguns or Assault Guns.  That's just the way they are.

[Silver Silence]

But zat is not enough!

[naufrago]

Just like you guys have been saying, beams should be useful as support weapons. I agree with that.

What I've been saying repeatedly is that they're unable to fill their role effectively against ships with high shield efficiency because those ships also have high flux dissipation. High tech ships are already more resistant to the effects of beams because they're better at dissipating soft flux. Factor in shield efficiency and beams become impotent.

This change wouldn't suddenly make beams lethal. In fact, their dps against many low-tech ships will drop. What this WILL do is make them more useful against things like the Apogee and Paragon. Can you honestly say that beams are useful against those ships?

You may not notice the problem now, but what about once the enemy fleets can get skills? If they have lots of tech skills, they'll need somewhere to put all that extra OP. Once the AI learns to dump some OP into vents and/or hardened shields, you might realize that there really is a problem to be fixed.

Since I know one of you will say, "What's so amazing about ships getting stronger with skills?", I'd like to reiterate that beams become disproportionately weaker than other weapons against ships with efficient shields. The player can already make beams almost useless against them from the get go, without sacrificing dps or survivability against other weapons. AI fleets getting skills will just level the playing field.

[FloW]

What I've been saying repeatedly is that they're unable to fill their role effectively against ships with high shield efficiency because those ships also have high flux dissipation. High tech ships are already more resistant to the effects of beams because they're better at dissipating soft flux. Factor in shield efficiency and beams become impotent.

First off, everything is somewhat less effective against high-tech ships with better vents and shield efficiency.

This change wouldn't suddenly make beams lethal. In fact, their dps against many low-tech ships will drop. What this WILL do is make them more useful against things like the Apogee and Paragon. Can you honestly say that beams are useful against those ships?

Yes, definitely. Pushing their shields to the limit with normal weapons, then put the heat on with phase beams (the ones that do EMP, iirc). Makes enemy DPS drop significantly.

You may not notice the problem now, but what about once the enemy fleets can get skills? If they have lots of tech skills, they'll need somewhere to put all that extra OP. Once the AI learns to dump some OP into vents and/or hardened shields, you might realize that there really is a problem to be fixed.

Since I know one of you will say, "What's so amazing about ships getting stronger with skills?", I'd like to reiterate that beams become disproportionately weaker than other weapons against ships with efficient shields. The player can already make beams almost useless against them from the get go, without sacrificing dps or survivability against other weapons. AI fleets getting skills will just level the playing field.

Here's the thing: You think that beams do so little damage (against shields), that they are a niche weapon (against unshielded/overloaded ships). Which is bad, in your opinion.
I see beams as a niche weapon against unshielded/overloaded ships. As such they have drawbacks, one of which is that they are rather inefficient against shields. That's why I think that the Graviton Beam might need a little love, but that's it.
Beams are not the weapon to end everything. They have their advantages, they have their disadvantages. I cannot stress this enough. This is called "Balance". It seems that you think that "Balance" is when every weapon is pretty much the same, and it's entirely up to personal preference. Which is not balanced.

Beams, although looking pretty, are not the solution for every problem. Sure, you can put Heavy Blasters instead of Graviton/Phase beams in these Medium Energy slots, but you will have to get rid of a lot more flux. And you'll have less range. And the enemy might dodge. All these problems will be solved by using Beam weapons, however they don't deal hard flux and as such are weak against ships with shields.

[Gothars]

It seems that you think that "Balance" is when every weapon is pretty much the same, and it's entirely up to personal preference.

I'm not under the impression at all that naufrago think's that. I'd say he has a point, beam weapons become disproportional worse against improving shields in comparison with other weapons. In certain constellations they hardly qualify even as support anymore. Of course you can say that's OK, they are just against low- and midtech and fighters. But I doubt that their intended usefulness is that narrow.

What I don't like is the idea of a general rule change for them. But thinking about it, it might actually work as a hullmod. There the game would have adequate room to explain what is happening differently. And you had the choice of equipping the mod against high tech fleets or disabling it against low tech.


Mh, now I thought of a beam that does nothing but actively reducing the targets shield efficiency against all weapons as long as it hits. That would really be a pure support weapon.

[Silver Silence]

Mh, now I thought of a beam that does nothing but actively reducing the targets shield efficiency against all weapons as long as it hits. That would really be a pure support weapon.

I also hope that it only works once, or there are diminishing returns. Otherwise you could build a paragon beamship out of these things, and then just laugh as a single heavy blaster shot overloads an Onslaught.

[Legendsmith]

I barely post here at all, due to my  dislike of forums in general (Though I check Starsector RRS many times daily for blog posts), but I wanted to express my support for naufrago here.
The point he is making is completely valid. You can't reasonably ignore it. Beams mechanically have rapidly diminishing effectiveness.

Flow, I reckon you should keep this in mind.

[Nanostrike]

Beams are better in numbers.  In just the Frigate stage of the game, several Wolf frigates focusing on a single enemy can easily overwhelm it's shields and KEEP overwhelming them because beams cost very little flux to fire.  Focusing on a single enemy like that, you can burn down an enemy fleet one ship at a time disturbingly quick.

I'd support the "Beams pass through allied ships" thing, as that would make this synergy between beam ships and other ships amplified.  A skill to make them pass through allies would be a good way to do this.  I'd also support a skill allowing beams to generate some of their damage as "Hard Flux", but no more than 50% or they'd quickly get ridiculous.

The problem with buffing beams is that they'd be easily overpowered if the buffs weren't VERY carefully considered.  They put out constant, low-flux-cost DPS, they have perfect accuracy, and good turret rotation speed.  You can already basically turn Autofire on your beams and fly circles around a target and never miss (With NO points in Gunnery Implants).  That alone would put them far above other weapons if they were on equal DPS-footing.

Which leads to another thing that Beams have going for them: Point Defense.  They're amazing at burning fighters because they hit instantly, almost never miss, and track insanely well.  With an integrated point-defense AI, they can do the same with missiles/torpedos.



However, I WILL specifically say that the Graviton Beam sucks and needs a significant buff for it's credit-cost and OP-cost.  Even being kinetic, it barely scratches shields.  I'd actually be fine having the Graviton Beam's damage be 100% hard-flux because it's a beam specifically designed to take out shields.  As it stands, it's hardly better than a Phase Beam for that purpose, and the Phase Beam is far, FAR better at everything else, especially Point Defense, where it can disable fighters that the Graviton barely scratches.

[phyrex]

Mh, now I thought of a beam that does nothing but actively reducing the targets shield efficiency against all weapons as long as it hits. That would really be a pure support weapon.

I also hope that it only works once, or there are diminishing returns. Otherwise you could build a paragon beamship out of these things, and then just laugh as a single heavy blaster shot overloads an Onslaught.

omg...that gif is epic

[xenoargh]

Hey all.  Haven't been back to see what's up in a while.

Anyhow, it's now possible to make beams do hard-flux damage via script, so I tried it out.

It isn't exactly game-breaking.  It almost makes beam builds useful.  Almost. 

They still have a pretty crappy DPS vs. shields, etc., but now they're ammo-less weapons that are at least vaguely useful.  In particular, this gets rid of one of my personal gripes with Vanilla; that Graviton Beam can actually behave like we're expecting it to, instead of being nerfed by the weird non-standard behavior of beams.

Anyhow, that's my $0.02 now that I've tested it out. 

The only beam weapon I didn't turn this on for was the Tachyon Lance; it still doesn't do anything if it can't get through shields and I still don't think it's worth using in Vanilla.  I thought about making the EMP effect random instead of being stopped by shields all the time- maybe 100% if no shield, but only 10% per check otherwise?  It's a special case, since it can be used to kite or build insta-kill fleets with...

[FloW]

Alright, after sleeping my head is a bit clearer.

The point I'm trying to make is that HE is also weak against shields, and it also gets worse as shield efficiency gets better. Admittedly HE does cause hard flux and as such will overload the target at some point (tactic of 1000 cuts). It is also effective against armor, but it is not able to instantly hit a target and it is not quite as easy to hit specific weapons of a target.
The biggest drawback I see with beams against high-tech ships is not their high shield efficiency (as it affects every damage the ship gets), but actually their better flux dissipation.
I'll just throw in an example (for free!) that might not fit 100%, but should get my point across: Ghost-type Pokemon are immune to Normal attacks (compare, high-tech ships are immune to Beam attacks). The solution is to simply change the attacks.

What I wanted to say with the whole "Balance" stuff, I think of it as intended imbalance. Beams are exceptionally good support and PD weapons. However, as long as shields are up, they can't really do much. Which is why I think that the Graviton Beam needs some kind of buff.

If you want to know why I'm opposed to this, just try flying the Neutrino Jackhammer. It features a Beam with exceptional range, accuracy and damage. Even though it does have long reload times, it is capable of completely destroying 2 frigates in a single burst. These frigates have no chance of survival whatsoever. None, zero, nil, NULL, 0,  . It's even capable of breaking through most cruiser shields and some capital ships. Did I mention that the range is also ridiculous?

As I'm all over the place with this post, here's the TL;DR:
Beams (except for the Graviton Beam) are great support weapons. And I agree that beams are less effective against high-tech ships, however I don't see that as a problem, as pretty much everything is less effective against high-tech ships (especially with the combat skill that allows hard flux dissipation). The Graviton Beam could use a buff, apart from that beams are quite alright, with their own advantages and disadvantages, one of which is that they have trouble actually killing something.

[Gothars]

And I agree that beams are less effective against high-tech ships, however I don't see that as a problem, as pretty much everything is less effective against high-tech ships (especially with the combat skill that allows hard flux dissipation).

The point was that the effect of good shields is greater against beams than against other weapons. So they become much less effective gainst high tech ships than other weapons.

I made a beautiful graph to explain:

e/ and about like in the second image it would look with naufrago's suggestion

[attachment deleted by admin]

[FloW]

And I agree that beams are less effective against high-tech ships, however I don't see that as a problem, as pretty much everything is less effective against high-tech ships (especially with the combat skill that allows hard flux dissipation).

The point was that the effect of good shields is greater against beams than against other weapons. So they become much less effective gainst high tech ships than other weapons.

To clarify: When I talk about better shields, I mean a higher efficiency. Not better flux dissipation.

The biggest drawback I see with beams against high-tech ships is not their high shield efficiency (as it affects every damage the ship gets), but actually their better flux dissipation.

And don't just slap a graph in there to explain something this simple. Makes much more sense to slap two in there.