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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Logistics & Fleet Management  (Read 33725 times)

naufrago

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2013, 06:22:21 PM »

Thank you for following up with a detailed explanation so swiftly Alex. It sounds all very intriguing. Can't wait to actually try it.

Still, questions:
If the maximum CR is reduced by a <100% LR value, where does the "reduced maintenance cost for ship with full CR" effect come into play? At absolute maximum CR or at the current, reduced maximum CR?


You said before that a 100%CR ship will be a rare sight and that about 50% CR ships will be the norm. That had me expecting that keeping a ship at ~50% would result in the lowest maintenance cost and keeping it at 100% would cost a lot of extra supplies and be only possible for a short time. Now it turns out that 100%CR has actually the lowest permanent costs. I could not really see anything that necessitates the condition described in your old statement, did I overlook something (Which is very possible due to large amounts of Haselnussschnaps. Yeah, we have words with 3 s now.) or did you change your approach?


I'm assuming the bonus is only at 100%CR, not the reduced maximum.

Also, I would assume that it just takes a while for CR to get all the way up to 100%. That, combined with the likeliness of pushing your LR below 100% (fleet in need of repairs, carrying a ton of loot, etc.) makes 100%CR uncommon, especially for larger fleets that already have high logistics costs. Also, frequent combat deployment makes it unlikely for any non-civilian ship to maintain high CR for long.

EDIT: Oh, just noticed this-
Quote
The things that consume supplies are:
  • Ship maintenance – ships have a new stats that indicates how many supplies per day they require for maintenance. More on that later.
  • Combat readiness (“CR”) recovery

The daily supply expenditure on all of that is added up, and together with the logistics stat, is used to produce a logistics rating (“LR”), which is a percentage value.
...
The solution here is that recovering CR doesn’t actually cost any supplies. Rather, being at maximum CR reduces the ship maintenance cost dramatically, but the full value still counts against the logistics rating. So, CR changes have no impact on the logistics rating.

You may want to remove "Combat readiness (“CR”) recovery" from that list, since it's a bit confusing/contradictory and basically already covered by "ship maintenance".
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 06:33:58 PM by naufrago »
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Alex

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2013, 07:15:26 PM »

Very nice post. Although i do wonder, after reading about the supplies part,  would fighters that dock and repair at a carrier consume, or when a ship fixes its guns and engines consume supplies and if so, would there be some sort of section in the post-combat report where it gives you some stats and supplies consumed for the in-combat repairs? Because that would add alot more depth in the game.

Refer to my answer to Pelhamds' question a little above :)

Will a lone battleship or carrier with fighters be able to handle "the great outdoors", as it were?

Sure. You probably would want to have some freighters along if you're going off exploring an area where resupply may be impossible, though.


The ISS Black Star might not be quite so independent, then. The idea of a lone ship against the world has romance to it, if not necessarily logical sense. Perhaps there could a skill for reducing the costs of the piloted ship alone, to provide room for one-ship fleets.

Then again, the Max CR supply reduction might be enough on its own. There may be only one battle between resupplies, as I figure the standard mercenary life is as following:

1) Find mission.
2) Blow stuff up.
3) Return to base to repair, refit, and refuel, then back to 1).

This is, of course, if everything goes right.  ;)

Right, that kind of a skill is a possibility. Also keep in mind that winning a battle is likely to give you a decent amount of supplies as loot.


Still, questions:
If the maximum CR is reduced by a <100% LR value, where does the "reduced maintenance cost for ship with full CR" effect come into play? At absolute maximum CR or at the current, reduced maximum CR?

It's based on the reduced maximum. Whenever I say "maximum CR", it's the current maximum. The absolute maximum is 100%, but since that doesn't change, one might as well refer to it as "100%" rather than "maximum".

Oh, side note: elite crew is back to requiring 100% of the crew to be elite on all ships, in the name of simplicity. Also, the actual average level is used, it's only discretized for picking which crew rank icon to display. So, a half and half green/regular crew would get a max CR of 55%, while all-regular would be 60%.


You said before that a 100%CR ship will be a rare sight and that about 50% CR ships will be the norm. That had me expecting that keeping a ship at ~50% would result in the lowest maintenance cost and keeping it at 100% would cost a lot of extra supplies and be only possible for a short time. Now it turns out that 100%CR has actually the lowest permanent costs.

An all-green crew gives +50% to maximum CR. An all-elite crew gives +80%. Combat aptitude 10 gives another +20% (+2% per level). These are all subject to change at some point, but with these values, the only way to get 100% CR right now is an all-elite crew and a captain with 10 combat aptitude.

So, for a ship with green crew, it's CR would max out at 50%, at which point the reduced supply cost would kick in.

... Haselnussschnaps. ...

So, google tells me this is a real thing. Oooook!


EDIT: Oh, just noticed this-
Quote
The things that consume supplies are:
  • Ship maintenance – ships have a new stats that indicates how many supplies per day they require for maintenance. More on that later.
  • Combat readiness (“CR”) recovery

The daily supply expenditure on all of that is added up, and together with the logistics stat, is used to produce a logistics rating (“LR”), which is a percentage value.
...
The solution here is that recovering CR doesn’t actually cost any supplies. Rather, being at maximum CR reduces the ship maintenance cost dramatically, but the full value still counts against the logistics rating. So, CR changes have no impact on the logistics rating.

You may want to remove "Combat readiness (“CR”) recovery" from that list, since it's a bit confusing/contradictory and basically already covered by "ship maintenance".

I think it makes sense as-is. The idea is to get across the point that CR recovery does cost supplies, and singling it out in that list does that, while the later explanation/correction clarifies just how it works.
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PCCL

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2013, 11:05:05 PM »

hmm...

am I the only one who doesn't quite like the "accidents occur when at %0 for over a day" thing? It's kinda like the current system where you can sail safely just under a certain threshold, but the moment you go juuuust a little bit over it all hell breaks loose, maybe something of an exponential increase might be more helpful here
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Decer304

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2013, 11:46:34 PM »

hmm...

am I the only one who doesn't quite like the "accidents occur when at %0 for over a day" thing? It's kinda like the current system where you can sail safely just under a certain threshold, but the moment you go juuuust a little bit over it all hell breaks loose, maybe something of an exponential increase might be more helpful here

Yeah, your not alone. I'm not too sure about that as well, especially a day in the game is like a few seconds in real life. Maybe a week, then accidents can occur, i just feel that a day is a little too short. But, i cant tell for sure cos i, or anyone else that not alex havnt played the game with that implemented.
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Gothars

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2013, 01:43:17 AM »

No no no guys, it is beautiful! It is elegant and beautiful.

As you say gunny, right now a single piece of cargo makes the difference between accident risk or no such thing. The condition of the fleet is completely irrelevant for that.

With the update, everything is interlocked. You can absolutely go beyond the cargo limit, you just have to watch out that your fleet is up to it. Are heavy repairs going on in your fleet? You can actually pause them to carry that extra freight to the next station risk-free. Is your fuel limit exceeded as well? You can dumb some of that instead of your precious cargo. Oh, one of your ships has completed preparing for combat! It now can focus all its attention on safely storing extra cargo.

There are just so many ways to make your fleet focus on what you think is most important now, it's much more flexible and organic. The one day accident buffer is just so you have time to notice and act, I believe.



So, google tells me this is a real thing. Oooook!

See, I had my second question based on an assumed answer to the first one (whose falseness should also have been obvious from the beginning) without even noticing. I now feel deep and everlasting shame. Don't drink and try logical thinking kids, it could ruin your life!
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 02:00:02 AM by Gothars »
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harperrb

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2013, 07:29:05 AM »

Quick question Alex,

Could/Should the system map mechanic of "moving" as opposed to "not moving"(or sitting there allowing time to pass) be a factor of LR as well? I don't understand it to be now. But, given the example of adjusting repair allowance; does it make sense that a stationary fleet would risk less and have less chance of accident than a mobile one? The intent not to penalize further, but to allow for some optional period of stationary repair before the decision has to be made to mothball, etc.    

One somewhat off-topic and perhaps future aspect this post did make me think off is the application of system phenomena mechanics could be (in its simplest form perhaps) a modifier of fleet LR - causing already strained fleets to be privy to accidents for a temporary state while they navigate through difficult areas (Gravity wells, nebulae, and asteroid fields)

And I continued to be excited and impressed by Starsector's developments
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 07:30:46 AM by harperrb »
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Alex

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #21 on: May 26, 2013, 10:01:57 AM »

hmm...

am I the only one who doesn't quite like the "accidents occur when at %0 for over a day" thing? It's kinda like the current system where you can sail safely just under a certain threshold, but the moment you go juuuust a little bit over it all hell breaks loose, maybe something of an exponential increase might be more helpful here

Yeah, your not alone. I'm not too sure about that as well, especially a day in the game is like a few seconds in real life. Maybe a week, then accidents can occur, i just feel that a day is a little too short. But, i cant tell for sure cos i, or anyone else that not alex havnt played the game with that implemented.

Accidents get worse as time goes on. I mean, at *some* point you have to go from 0 chance of accident to some chance of accident, right? Generally speaking, accidents from being at 0% LR shouldn't come into play much, as they'd be due a player mistake. The lower-severity accidents reflect that, by targeting excess capacity with the accident result, if possible.


There are just so many ways to make your fleet focus on what you think is most important now, it's much more flexible and organic. The one day accident buffer is just so you have time to notice and act, I believe.

Right, exactly.


Could/Should the system map mechanic of "moving" as opposed to "not moving"(or sitting there allowing time to pass) be a factor of LR as well? I don't understand it to be now. But, given the example of adjusting repair allowance; does it make sense that a stationary fleet would risk less and have less chance of accident than a mobile one? The intent not to penalize further, but to allow for some optional period of stationary repair before the decision has to be made to mothball, etc.    

Hmm. That's an interesting question. I'm leery of things that encourage you to sit still, because that could get boring. I could see low LR giving a minor speed penalty to the fleet, though.

One somewhat off-topic and perhaps future aspect this post did make me think off is the application of system phenomena mechanics could be (in its simplest form perhaps) a modifier of fleet LR - causing already strained fleets to be privy to accidents for a temporary state while they navigate through difficult areas (Gravity wells, nebulae, and asteroid fields)

That could work, but not with the way LR is implemented. It's a derived value based on other stats, so you can't really reduce it. On the other hand, there's no reason that accidents couldn't happen for other reasons, in fact, part of the idea behind CR was to enable less ham-fisted accidents. For example, you're going through a charged nebula, and a ship suffers a 25% CR loss due to some electronics failing. That kind of thing couldn't be adequately represented with damage or supply/fuel/etc loss.
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Gothars

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2013, 01:15:27 PM »

One somewhat off-topic and perhaps future aspect this post did make me think off is the application of system phenomena mechanics could be (in its simplest form perhaps) a modifier of fleet LR - causing already strained fleets to be privy to accidents for a temporary state while they navigate through difficult areas (Gravity wells, nebulae, and asteroid fields)

That could work, but not with the way LR is implemented. It's a derived value based on other stats, so you can't really reduce it. On the other hand, there's no reason that accidents couldn't happen for other reasons, in fact, part of the idea behind CR was to enable less ham-fisted accidents. For example, you're going through a charged nebula, and a ship suffers a 25% CR loss due to some electronics failing. That kind of thing couldn't be adequately represented with damage or supply/fuel/etc loss.

Mh...you could try a "environmental conditions" stat that goes up in dangerous areas and then consumes supplies, effectively reducing LR.
Actually, this could be implemented as continuous damage being dealt at a rate under the repair rate. That way you'd have a level of control (by suspending repairs if needed) and if you're out of supplies you'd have the built-in penalty of your ships being slowly damaged.

CR reducing accidents are fine as a deterring mechanic, but not necessarily harsh enough at all cimcumstances.
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PCCL

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2013, 01:25:37 PM »


Accidents get worse as time goes on. I mean, at *some* point you have to go from 0 chance of accident to some chance of accident, right? Generally speaking, accidents from being at 0% LR shouldn't come into play much, as they'd be due a player mistake. The lower-severity accidents reflect that, by targeting excess capacity with the accident result, if possible.


oh... I thought it's like before where if you stay under the %150 it's all fine and dandy, then you go to %151 and OMG EXTREME ACCIDENT CHANCE EVERYONE IS GONNA DIE!!!

nvm then
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Gigalith

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2013, 02:16:54 PM »

An all-green crew gives +50% to maximum CR. An all-elite crew gives +80%. Combat aptitude 10 gives another +20% (+2% per level). These are all subject to change at some point, but with these values, the only way to get 100% CR right now is an all-elite crew and a captain with 10 combat aptitude.

So, for a ship with green crew, it's CR would max out at 50%, at which point the reduced supply cost would kick in.

Does this mean that with LR 0%, all green crews and no Combat Aptitude, your entire fleet has CR 0% (and thus can't be deployed)? Ouch, if that's the case.. Better start mothballing ships at that point.

For that matter, if your maximum CR is, say, 2% from low crew/logistics, can you still get the max CR supply bonus? It seems a weird way to exploit the supply rules, though the low CR would bring its own set of problems...
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Hari Seldon

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2013, 03:04:03 PM »

Is "Mothball" going to replace the current "store at abandoned station"?
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Alex

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2013, 04:27:47 PM »

Does this mean that with LR 0%, all green crews and no Combat Aptitude, your entire fleet has CR 0% (and thus can't be deployed)? Ouch, if that's the case.. Better start mothballing ships at that point.

Yep. Don't go to 0% LR!

For that matter, if your maximum CR is, say, 2% from low crew/logistics, can you still get the max CR supply bonus? It seems a weird way to exploit the supply rules, though the low CR would bring its own set of problems...

Crew being understrength acts as a multiplier to the current and max CR, so it can't change whether or not a ship is at max CR.

In any event, it wouldn't be an "exploit" if it did, since the ship stops recovering CR. Which is the reason for the supply use drop.

Is "Mothball" going to replace the current "store at abandoned station"?

They're unrelated. Actually about to rename that option in the abandoned station as we speak :)
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CrashToDesktop

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2013, 11:44:36 AM »

Might I be crawling out from under the bed? :)

Thank the lord for the Maxium Crew Level!  God, that will save me (and the rest of us, I'm sure) time from moving all our cargo ships behind the combat ones. :D I can't say much about the LR stat now - seems a bit confusing to me.

My only gripe about the Mothballed ships is that they start at 0% CR instead of 10% once you recover them - it eliminates 90% of the CR needed to sustain it.  There HAS to be some maintainence during it's time as mothballed - hence why it shouldn't start at 0% CR - and why it should start at 10% CR.
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frag971

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2013, 02:19:43 PM »

Very nice details. I can almost see how it ties in with future features. But i've got a couple questions.

So Logistics is a fleet stat while combat readiness is a ship stat?

Have you thought or considered having Supply as a sort of ammo?
Spoiler
Like, each ship with have Storage and Cargo (i know they sound ambiguous).
Storage is how much Supply a ship can carry and Cargo is how much it can carry of other stuff like ammunition, guns, soldiers, etc...
This way fighters would have neither storage nor supply, frigates would have a bit of both and as ships become bigger their Cargo would go up while Supply would stay relatively the same.
That would lead to support/resupply ships with huge amounts of Storage space for all that extra Supply we need and they would have drones that transport additional Supply or ammo between ships (in combat?).
[close]

Are there any plans to have out-of-battle events influence in-battle events?
Spoiler
For example i was chasing Fleet A and Fleet B was chasing me behind.
I engage Fleet A but during the fight Fleet B caught up and enters the fight as a third side and we all engage in a 1-vs-1-vs-1 free-for-all.
I suppose you could count the travel time faster than battle time, so the passage of time in the system would slow down considerably during a player battle, and thus almost instant battles between NPC fleets when the player is out of battle.
[close]

Any chance, down the line, to have astronomical events actually influence game events?
Spoiler
A red giant turning supernova destroying the whole system. The player has to escape the system, but when he comes back there's a huge amount of mining resources and a black hole in the middle
which will destroy you if you get close (but oh so fun to stride close to it when enemies are behind me. kessel run ftw).
Or a gamma-ray burst as a wide beam across the entire system that does constant damage as long as you remain in it.
Or even a rare, alien-made wormhole that spawns an instance where you can battle overpowered aliens and get cool weird weapons and modules.
[close]
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 08:51:18 AM by Gothars »
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bobusdoleus

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Re: Logistics & Fleet Management
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2013, 08:43:36 AM »

Doesn't this new system cause priority to play 'double duty' for ship repairs and crew distribution, something that may be unfavorable?

Supposing I had an awesome dreadnought, a secondary combat ship, one or more ships I captured that I'd want to tow around but not ever use, maybe some fighters, and some sort of cargo hauler. Some or all of these ships are lightly damaged. I use a lot of my crew capacity for marines, in case I ever run into a cappable onslaught or something.

The awesome dreadnought got severely damaged, but I don't want to lose it in combat, so until such a time as it's repaired, I don't want to field it in combat at all. Therefore, I don't mind it being undercrewed, because I need my secondary ship fully crewed - but I /do/ want it receiving repairs, at maximum priority, because when it's fixed I'll be fielding it in battle.

Currently, if you want something repaired maximum-fast, you also have to designate it to be fully crewed, which may not be an option if you don't want to fly damaged ships into combat (because you have other ships). This is especially a problem if this damaged ship is vastly larger than the other ships in your fleet: Otherwise you'd be able to field a bunch of smaller ships, and maybe skeletal-crew this one, but as is, all your crew are sucked into the dreadnaught leaving you far fewer ships you can field in combat.


With this you could argue 'But Bob, you have a high crew capacity with this supposition! This shouldn't be a problem!' Okay, then I present this: You used a bunch of smaller ships to defeat and capture a large capital ship of awesomeness. You use most of your personnel capacity for marines, to ensure this can happen. You want to field this giant ship as soon as possible, because it's giant and awesome, but you need your other ships to be crewed in the meantime so you aren't flying this damaged husk into battle. You can't just let it sit at the back of the line for repairs, because your other ships were somewhat damaged too, and you really want to repair this big ship before getting to the rest of them - once you do, you won't need the smaller ships anymore. What do?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 08:53:18 AM by bobusdoleus »
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