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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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KickStarter Campaign?

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Author Topic: KickStarter Campaign!  (Read 12573 times)

x2ruff4u

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KickStarter Campaign!
« on: April 30, 2013, 06:56:54 AM »

I have to admit this game is very addicting. 3 Days playing straight & I think this game needs more attention and funding to be completed. Not that I'm saying you guys are slow or anything, but I just bought this game and it's not even close to being finished.

I have a suggestion. Start a KickStarter campaign. Show people what there missing out on. You could do pledges of in game custom ship models or hand models. There's lots of ideas and I would pledge $100 just for you guys to even start it. You have nothing to lose, but everything to gain.  :)
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Gothars

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2013, 07:09:20 AM »

This has been addressed ind detail by the developers, let me just quote them here:


TL;DR: "it's just not something I'd want to do as anything but a last resort."

Spoiler
I'll answer this as a game developer generally, apart from Starsector, which only Alex can comment on from a business development perspective.

Kickstarter: I'm pretty uncomfortable with it. Reasons:

- They take a big cut. That sucks. If I was to do a Kickstarter-style campaign I'd rather do what Introversion did and host it myself so I could control the money and the terms. (This requires having already established a reputation of course, but I've got that luxury to some extent.)

- The focus on hyping and selling the idea rather than making the product is a distraction from what the project should be about: Making Something. This also tends to discredit the whole arrangement because you get charming salesmen successfully launching products rather than competent developers. Anyone who hasn't shipped a project will absolutely underestimate what is required. Every time, without fail. Alex is doing pretty well here because 1. he was a Real Software Developer before Starsector and 2. he hasn't promised any deadlines (which KS would require) and therefore can officially ship when he is actually happy with the end product rather than before, and 3. I can't really imagine Alex trying to play the salesman; he's simply not the sort of guy who hypes stuff up unless he can but absolutely sure he can deliver.

- The focus on silly 'rewards' is a huge time-waster and distraction from the product itself (though an admittedly clever way to enabled people with a lot of extra money to throw it at a project that tickles their fancy). Everyone always underestimates how much work and cost physical merchandise is; I know I did for Dredmor merch and it wasn't worth it from a purely financial perspective - it was cool to give something to the fans though, and we only did it *after* we shipped the game and therefore had some time.
To go on with this point, word on the grapevine is that the FTL guys had to put in a ton of overtime on producing merch which took away from game development. Just more costs and time-sinks.

So in the end you've got to put at least half of the money you got from Kickstarter back into Kickstarter and on merch -- and waste valuable development the time on merch while trying to hit your deadline which is almost certainly set too soon. I mean, yeah, it's good to get a pile of money, but it's at a huge cost, especially to inexperienced devs. Therefore: extremely skeptical.


We developed Dredmor at Gaslamp by being extremely poor for years while working on the game, then launching it. It was actually a pretty awful experience in most ways (stressing over making rent, buying bags of potatoes, rice, and lentils to live on, etc.) so I can't recommend that either. Possibly Kickstarter would be the way to go, but I don't think we would have been able to succeed at a Kickstarter if it had been around in 2008.


As for Desura, for all the good feelings it evokes, I suspect - but am not sure - that no one actually gets a lot of money from it. I would suggest trying to find some hard numbers before considering it a viable method of fundraising.


Just to comment on Kickstarter: my opinion pretty much mirrors David's, so I won't rehash his points. I do have a few things I'd like to add, though.

To have a successful campaign at the beginning of a project's lifecycle, you'd likely have to promise lots of things you can't be sure of (both features and timelines included), and aside from being morally questionable, it creates a lot of pressure. I'd rather feel like I have a free hand and the time to do things right. A project that's farther along could do better here, though.

Never mind how much effort a successful campaign actually is - and how you'll get the stigma of failure attached to your project if you happen to miss your target even by a cent.

Also, at the risk of sounding like the kind of person that calls themselves an artiste (gah!), I have a visceral, negative reaction to the "add something to the game" reward tiers - I think it compromises the game's integrity. Suggestions? Great. Being paid to let someone who's otherwise not part of the creative process design a room in a dungeon / a ship / an NPC? No. Just no. But without that, I think you'd be hard-pressed to run a competitive Kickstarter campaign. I appreciate that some projects need to do this to get off the ground or cross the finish line - it's just not something I'd want to do as anything but a last resort.
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x2ruff4u

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2013, 05:10:45 PM »

You either go BIG or go home. I understand, BUT don't do merchandise than. Kickstarter only takes 5% cut & Amazon does 3-5% cut. I'd like to write more, but it seems this has already been settled...
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NinjaPirate

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2013, 06:01:32 PM »

It's nice that this game is so awesome we just want to give them our money.  I would be happy to pay in more if it helped, but I guess maybe that is partially why the game is so awesome.  The devs really just get to stick to making the game they want to make.  But hell there is part of me that would love to see a kickstarter for this game just to get it some more recognition.

Any chance of a steam pre-release perhaps?
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banehunter

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2013, 07:58:23 PM »

he has also seemed to not enjoy the notion of a steam release give me a second to find the quote here................
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Flare

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2013, 01:57:16 AM »

You either go BIG or go home. I understand, BUT don't do merchandise then. Kickstarter only takes 5% cut & Amazon does 3-5% cut. I'd like to write more, but it seems this has already been settled...

5% of 100k is 5 thousand dollars. What did kickstarter even do to deserve you paying them? They have a website you can use, and they're just putting their name along side yours. A name that isn't even all that famous. Most kickstarter goals aren't achieved because of their vigorous advertisements or masses of people browsing their website looking to toss some money away. Successful fundings are done due to things outside outside of their website. Word of mouth on forums, and other game related sites telling people about a project they like.

On the topic of 5%. 5% is quite a bit cut when you experience this sort of thing in business, or are managing your own money, or a business' money. I have to pay a 2.5% surcharge on all visa cards, and an even higher one for people who want to use debit. Those businesses aren't putting signs up declaring that they won't take a card under a certain amount for no reason. At the end of the year when I compile accounts, or when I do my taxes, that 2.5% is not an insignificant chunk of money, especially when you look at the the yearly totals, let alone a whopping 5%. It might not be all that much when you're doing a thousand or two in sales, but when you are taking in ten or twenty times this amount, that 5% is pretty significant. 5% of a dollar won't buy anything, but 5% of 70k-100k will buy a whole lot. These card companies basically do nothing! They give you a card machine, and then do financial transactions with their software -that's it- They don't lay their own data line, some don't even provide the internet subscription for the card machines, and on top of this, charge that 2.5% on on top of the total with the tax factored into it already.

You're the one designing your own kickstarter page, you're the one fulfilling the rewards, and you're the one developing the product, and you are the most responsible person in making the deadline. That 50k or 80k isn't even their own money! If you have invoices to prove that your business is making money, just go to a bank and get a loan. Selling the beta, and having evidence of sales is a good way to do this.
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The battle station is not completely operational, shall we say.

"Now witness the firepower of this thoroughly buggy and unoperational batt... Oh, hell, you know what? Just ignore the battle station, okay?"

Harabeck

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2013, 06:34:07 AM »

5% of 100k is 5 thousand dollars. What did kickstarter even do to deserve you paying them? They have a website you can use, and they're just putting their name along side yours.
I know right. And where do digital distributors like Steam and Desura get off taking a cut of games sold on their site? It's not like they made the game. Where does Wal-Mart get off taking money for the products they sell? They didn't make that stuff.  :P

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A name that isn't even all that famous. Most kickstarter goals aren't achieved because of their vigorous advertisements or masses of people browsing their website looking to toss some money away. Successful fundings are done due to things outside outside of their website. Word of mouth on forums, and other game related sites telling people about a project they like.
While true that you have to get help outside of the website, it does help to be on Kickstarter. Many people do simply browse the site, and some people won't trust a project that isn't on Kickstarter. It also makes you more likely to get covered in the gaming media, especially if you're a new developer. Like it or not, the name helps a lot.

Quote
You're the one designing your own kickstarter page, you're the one fulfilling the rewards, and you're the one developing the product, and you are the most responsible person in making the deadline.
And you're the one getting 90% of the money, money you wouldn't have had at all otherwise.

Quote
That 50k or 80k isn't even their own money! If you have invoices to prove that your business is making money, just go to a bank and get a loan. Selling the beta, and having evidence of sales is a good way to do this.
Ah, of course. Debt, every entrepreneur's best friend.

That's not to say there isn't anything to consider. Physical prizes can chew away more funding than some realize. Once people have backed you, they expect results; you suddenly have a new group of fans making demands on your time. The campaign itself is incredibly stressful. It's a full month of working all day to get more attention (while not crossing the line into spamming), and that doesn't count all of the preparation you have to do. If Alex is getting by and doesn't want to crowdfund, I can understand that choice.
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x2ruff4u

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2013, 05:44:48 PM »

StarDrive was recently release on Steam and currently stand at number four on top sellers. This was all started by one person.

Here is the KickStarter project link  http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1319847883/stardrive-a-4x-action-strategy-game-for-the-pc

647
backers
$17,676
pledged of $7,500 goal


There was no physical merchandise given & the ideas he used was what I would of conjured up myself.


Development history
StarDrive started as the brain child of Dan "Zero" DiCicco (founder of Zero Sum Games) a divorce lawyer from Oregon, USA. After bringing StarDrive to kickstarter and achieving over 200% funding in December 2011, Daniel was able to hire Ariel Chai as lead artist, Jeff Dodson to write the game's music and a few other people to help code the game part-time.
StarDrive was launched on Desura's alpha-funding service due to a mistake by Desura staff, but was later taken off that service and returned to a closed state where it remains.

StarDrive was launched on Steam in April of 2013.


Now that his game is released I could only imagine yours as follow up would dominate his. If this does not change your mind to get up and do something than this game will be doomed & forgotten eventually. Listen to your community and advice given.
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Sproginator

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2013, 05:48:34 PM »

I've had to say yes for a simple reason

The games community is obviously expanding, but there will come a time when this will stop, it has done with all games. I believe that at this stage in development it is important to pulicise your product now that it is more refined. More so than most other games on kickstarter that I've seen
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PCCL

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2013, 05:58:33 PM »

to that I say kickstarter then, not now

as alex said, it's going to be a last resort, and the slowing of sales to a halt seems to justify a last resort I believe
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Flare

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2013, 06:02:20 PM »

5% of 100k is 5 thousand dollars. What did kickstarter even do to deserve you paying them? They have a website you can use, and they're just putting their name along side yours.
I know right. And where do digital distributors like Steam and Desura get off taking a cut of games sold on their site? It's not like they made the game. Where does Wal-Mart get off taking money for the products they sell? They didn't make that stuff.  :P

TO be honest, I don't think Steam and Desura deserve that much of the cut either. Steam has a bit more leverage due to the general perception that people like to buy from them, though without any solid publications of their financial accounts it's a little hard to gauge it. Desura doesn't deserve that big of a cut. A long with not doing very much to promote themselves or to help the game seller increase their sales or make it easier for them to do so, they are not well know, and even without data, their presence is quite small.

As for Walmart and retailers, they do do something. They have a store front they have to manage and pay rent or buy land. Managing physical store fronts require a great deal of physical work. They also advertise their stuff to local people through flyers and other means.

Quote
While true that you have to get help outside of the website, it does help to be on Kickstarter. Many people do simply browse the site, and some people won't trust a project that isn't on Kickstarter. It also makes you more likely to get covered in the gaming media, especially if you're a new developer. Like it or not, the name helps a lot.

How are you so sure that "many" people browse the site? I'm sure some do, but I'm not so sure that number is all that large. When you have money to spend and have a choice between something that might come to fruition and might accomplish everything they promise against something that is fully completed, and with the full range of features already in place, it's a very easy choice.

Like the option already brought up, if you have a beta ready to play, and are selling it. You might as well just make your own kickstarter like website. People aren't going to doubt you when the project is already well under way. On top of this, kickstarter doesn't really guarantee the project completing anymore than someone setting up their own website for donations anyway. Trust in a company or a person's willingness is mostly due to how they present their proposal, there are many projects on kickstarter that are quite dubious as to whether the person can pull it off, or whether they are really going to do it.

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You're the one designing your own kickstarter page, you're the one fulfilling the rewards, and you're the one developing the product, and you are the most responsible person in making the deadline.
And you're the one getting 90% of the money, money you wouldn't have had at all otherwise.[/quote]

Compared to getting close to 100% of the money when you make your own investment website. 90% isn't a very good going rate considering that kickstarter does nearly nothing to attract traffic to the site, or bring attention directly to its projects outside of the website.

Quote
Quote
That 50k or 80k isn't even their own money! If you have invoices to prove that your business is making money, just go to a bank and get a loan. Selling the beta, and having evidence of sales is a good way to do this.
Ah, of course. Debt, every entrepreneur's best friend.

All businesses need a bank for capital, it is ubiquitous. Ironing out how to manage debt is incredibly important when you are trying to start a business. You can go alone purely by what the sales bring in, but your growth would be incredibly ***. Even if you are not planning to grow it beyond one or two additional coders or artists, and just stay with oneself as the sole developer, it will still help to grow the business to the point where you can comfortably rely on the sales.

Quote
That's not to say there isn't anything to consider. Physical prizes can chew away more funding than some realize. Once people have backed you, they expect results; you suddenly have a new group of fans making demands on your time. The campaign itself is incredibly stressful. It's a full month of working all day to get more attention (while not crossing the line into spamming), and that doesn't count all of the preparation you have to do. If Alex is getting by and doesn't want to crowdfund, I can understand that choice.

There's also another issue to keep in mind, and that is how many copies you sell to people early on at a discount. Aside from a few good Samaritans who will buy more copies for their friends, the targeted demographic just needs one copy each per person. Restricting exposure early on to limit the amount of people who buy a copy at a discount just enough to keep developing the game, and then go for maximum exposure once you can sell it at full price later on is the optimal route.
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Quote from: Thana
Quote from: Alex

The battle station is not completely operational, shall we say.

"Now witness the firepower of this thoroughly buggy and unoperational batt... Oh, hell, you know what? Just ignore the battle station, okay?"

x2ruff4u

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2013, 06:08:35 PM »

Can we get Alex's opinion in here again? Could he look at what I posted and tell me "it's still a last resort". Times change & I really think Alex should reconsider.

I'm starting to think this game is a side hobby from all the posts I seen or am I wrong???
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Flare

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2013, 06:09:51 PM »

He quit his job early on and has dedicated all of his time onto this, IIRC.

I went away from the forum for a while, so I might have missed him announcing going back on the job in the interim of my time away though.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 10:20:33 PM by Flare »
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Quote from: Thana
Quote from: Alex

The battle station is not completely operational, shall we say.

"Now witness the firepower of this thoroughly buggy and unoperational batt... Oh, hell, you know what? Just ignore the battle station, okay?"

Alex

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2013, 06:30:58 PM »

I'm working on the game full-time and will be for the foreseeable future.

Other considerations aside, I don't think taking a month away from development to run a KS campaign would do anything to speed up development :)
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Silver Silence

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Re: KickStarter Campaign!
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2013, 10:31:43 PM »

I'm starting to think this game is a side hobby from all the posts I seen or am I wrong???


I wouldn't actually mind if Alex said it was a hobby... Going out on a limb and assuming that Alex enjoys working on Starfarer and sharing it with us so we can mangle it with mods. Just wait till we turn Starfarer into some sort of turn-based strategy, somehow. In my experience, when something you enjoy doing becomes something that's putting food on the table and a roof over your head, it becomes not-so-enjoyable. If it were a hobby and you were having a bad day, you could take a break. Can't really do that with your job. Then that bad day leads to a bad bit of coding which works fine for now but later down the line when that bit of coding has all sorts of hook-ups to it and is starting to give you problems, you can't just undo it without breaking a ton more things in the process.
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