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[Alex]

Here are my first impressions (that are overall positive, despite the fact that most of this post is critical). Great new sounds, mostly great UI improvements and a whole lot of new mechanics.

Regarding the new mechanics, the learning curve has steepened from a nice rolling hill to a mountain. For those who have been playing the previous versions to death and have followed/discussed the upcoming changes in the forums I'm sure it's manageable. For someone like me who lurks around and plays each new version for few hours, Starsector feels a lot more "gamey", even artificially so.

The first noticeable thing is the CR (and repair) related supply-burn that makes the first campaign tries quick peek-a-boo style events that force you to remain close to a station. I understand the reasoning behind this mechanic, but I think it will be more fun and approachable for a wider audience if in the beginning, when playing with only your first ship, the need for supplies would not be so massive. The management of the supplies could be introduced gently as the fleet gets bigger.

The high price of the supplies makes this world seem a bit like the mentioned fallout or mad max, which is fine, but combined with the higher burn rate of supplies is a bit of a shock initially.

Thanks for the feedback! Always good to hear the perspective of someone that's less "in" it. Definitely agree about the learning curve, and it's a concern. Not entirely sure how much can be done about it, aside from adding some introduction-style section for the campaign.

Another CR related shock was the constant CR burn of the frigates during combat. The rate at which CR drops is way too high to my liking and I would enjoy the game more without this added mechanism. I see the CR as an abstract concept that works on the campaign-level where time moves very fast, but during combat (which is a matter of minutes/hours) it does not make that much sense. It feels artificial and unnecessary. CR could drop with hull damage, leading to higher possibility of breakdowns, but not constantly with time. With small fighters it does make sense, but frigates make me think craft like millenium falcon that should be able to sustain themselves for extended periods.

As an example I flew with a lasher and encountered two hounds. I tried to run away, but was caught. In combat I faced one hound, which I destroyed quite easily (no hull damage to me), though it took some time as the hound was faster and could choose when to engage me. Then nothing happened. I took over all sensors/buoys thinking that might end the fight, but still nothing happened. Then my CR went to 0 and my ship started to malfunction continuously and apparently then the AI deploys the other hound as I start to lose control of the control points.

Glad you brought this up, especially the example. That fight really shouldn't have objectives in it, which I think is the bigger problem here. You ended up with a bigger map and a spread-out enemy fleet when only 3 ships were involved. (I think the AI actually deployed both Hounds at once, one of them just, ah, got lost.) Will change it so that whether the battle has objectives depends on the size of the smaller fleet in the encounter.

Proper request:  Is it going to be difficult for you to arrange for wing reinforcements to launch from a random in-battle flight-deck instead off from the edge of the map like normal backup?  As a carrier ***, I don't like dropping the kids off before going to work (so to speak)

I'd like to deploy a picket screen with assets on alert but that would be a two-stage process for CR use.  I'll settle for 150% CR drop for any alert wings launched during battle from a flightdeck though

This is one of those things where it sounds simple, but then you realize that "a random flight deck" wouldn't do, and start getting into UI elements to manage which wings are assigned to which carriers in the campaign, and before you know it, you're redoing the fighter mechanics from scratch instead of working on things that really need to be worked on. Ahem.

[JH1]

Does the CR drop affect enemy frigates in battle also? Your own CR drop would be more justified that way, same way I wouldn't want to see the enemy with unlimited missiles and ammo.

[heskey30]

I don't know everyone's problem with frigates is, I'm rolling in credits from wrecking pirate fleets in my little phase frigate. (the one with the emp emitter)

If anything, it's even stronger than before. Not in raw firepower - it can't take on huge fleets, but it makes money so quickly.

It's so cheap to deploy, its strike weapons make short of anything above fighters, and you can carry around hundreds of supplies for at least a short time after every fight. I rarely get to the point of malfunctions, and when I do, I am still almost impossible to hit because I can phase whenever I have engine trouble. And even better, it's really fun. It does have ammo problems against really big pirate fleets though, so I stick to the midsize ones.

And yes, I am playing with full damage.

[Mattk50]

Thanks for the feedback! Always good to hear the perspective of someone that's less "in" it. Definitely agree about the learning curve, and it's a concern. Not entirely sure how much can be done about it, aside from adding some introduction-style section for the campaign.

*cough* trading/mining mechanics *cough* frigate vs. frigate combat is the fastest and hardest piloting in the game, and from what friends who i've had try the game tell me, people always just get stuck in a loop of fighting and dying when they start. They go after individual pirate frigates, and even if they win twice if they lose the third they effectively need to start over from a credit standpoint.

If there were price differences between prices in stations to take advantage of or mining in some form was implemented, people without extremely good piloting skills in a game they've never played before wouldnt feel so left out


By the way i just realized that those "deploy left/deploy right" in escapes deploy to the left/right of the screen, not just the left/right of the normal formation. This is incredible for smashing into enemy fleets and cutting them off as they try to run.



edit about freighters: I just noticed the logistics system change brought freighters into balance with cargo heavy combat ships like the venture. its 8 supplies per day(s/d) for 500 cargo with the venture, or 2 s/d for 300 cargo with the tarsus, which means 1200 cargo for the same cost. Also, the tarsus has much better fleeing ability thanks to it's burn drive. I really like these changes, the system works really well for balancing this stuff.

[Darloth]

I started with a lasher and had little difficulty in killing pirate buffalos (which drop loads of supplies) and seeing off hounds (often using missiles).  I admit I did leave it on the default 50% damage because I wasn't looking for a tooth and nail fight up above survival level, but most new players apparently don't know this setting exists, so I think the comparison is still fair.

I think part of the problem may be that the beam wolf is actually quite hard to use now - I tried it as well but it was noticeably tougher. It really is a -support- layout now... Perhaps one set up like the pulse laser wolfs from the Wolf Pack mission would be a better starting ship than the gravi-beam and taclaser one?

Since then, I -have- been playing with frigate swarms, and they're great.  Cheap to deploy, so you can use them in nice big chunks, very cheap to run (10 frigates that you aren't actively fighting with will cost you about 2 supplies per day, and you can get like 50-60 from an average small pirate fleet - which you can probably kill with only 3 or 4 of those 10 frigates), and nicely effective at killing stuff if you set them up right.  People who want longer duration frigates should however look to the lowtech and midtech frigates, especially the Lasher which lasts ages.  The Wolf and the Hyperion are both a fair bit more expensive than 'normal' frigates, especially the hyperion - I haven't tried a tempest yet but I don't think they're quite as bad - use these as strike vessels or reinforcements when things aren't going so well.

Frigates also mean you can run from anything too big, and chase down anything slow and weak like buffalos without much difficulty - but you do run into the problem that in any close fight, you're going to lose some frigates and some crew will die.  If you pick your fights well enough you'll make this money back, but if not, you can lose a frigateswarm horrifyingly quickly - knowing when to run is probably a good idea (I'm actually bad at this) because frigates should be able to run away from everything on the escape map without too much difficulty.  I can never catch Hounds, thats for sure.

Regarding fighters... yeah, they cost way too much.  Someone said they thought it was a bug, because the values seem appropriate per-wing, but are actually applied per individual fighter.  Either way, 2-fighter wings like thunders or xephos aren't as bad. 

(Alex, do you care to comment here on whether fighter supply is working as intended, slightly broken and will be rebalanced, or actually bugged and will be calculated differently? There's maybe a couple of threads about it in suggestions or bug reports also, if here isn't the best place)

Overall though I'm really enjoying the new release - I haven't found it unduly difficult, if anything it's easier as well chosen fights can now provide a lot more credits a lot quicker through selling supplies, but there are probably more potential pitfalls if you do start failing too much.  I love the new logistics changes in general... the UI is okay, sometimes I preferred the old one (buying/selling ships is the main one), and I've no idea why the F1 tips aren't just always there, or indeed why the full logistics panel doesn't always display - can we get those as toggle options perhaps?  All in all though, worth the wait!

[Gothars]

You put those elite brawlers in to demonstrate that the AI knows perfectly well when to use kinetic and when HE, din't you Alex? I'm so dead, again...

BTW, has anyone said yet that hyperspace is damn beautiful? 'cause it is. I also love the rings of salus.

Oh, and a question: Is there really no way to suspend CR regeneration (except for fighters)? Why?

[Nick XR]

Some thoughts on the new stuff:

• When I have too few crew for my ships, there's no single number that says "this is how many more crew you need".  You can get it, it just takes realizing you need to mouse over the personel indicator on the tiny little fleet info in the lower right
• I like the summary fleet info in the lower right, but there should probably be a first-class UI page for all that information broken out it's so critical to what your doing (rather than having to hit F1 for each of the individual elements).  Maybe that would scare people who don't like number, but in SS if you're not paying attention to numbers you're going to have a bad time.
• The skill that gives you a "Burn" increase, it's description isn't clear what you'll get by investing in it for more than just the next level.  For example, if I'm at level 4 and I really want another +2 to destroyer speed, I'm not sure if I'll ever get that by investing all the way to level 10.  I need some sort of road map to help me plan allocation here.
  
• Again with the Burn speed skill, a "key" for the "X/X/X/X" portion would be helpful for people who haven't played the game a ton.  Just a simple "Frigate/Destroyer/Cruiser/Capital" would do.
• Maybe move some skills that are desirable to leadership (like the navigation related ones), right now the only really valuable one seems to be logistics.  Maybe add a skill that increases max CR by 1% per level?  It feels like all of the Must Have skills are in Tech.
  
• I wish the larger weapons sounds had more bass, the weapon sounds lack 'heft'
• The Cargo screen is misleading, it's called 'your cargo' but really only a few things in there are actually 'cargo'.  Fuel should probably just be a slider on the right indicating how much you've got, vs how much you can properly carry.  Personnel should be an icon & counter on the left for each of the types (marines and skill level), then the actual cargo-cargo in the middle.  It would be nice to have your max cargo capacity near the actual cargo 'area' but maybe that's because of my high rez.
• A pipe dream of mine, and those with big monitors in general would be to have a UI scalar, say make everything 120% of normal so I don't have to squint.

[Traece]

I like how far this game has come in this last year or so. Here are some observations from my attempt at building up a character.

Like some others have said, starting out is a bit of a rinse and repeat struggle until you get lucky with engagements or learn how to kill the different pirate ships. The Lasher as always was largely responsible for this, but surprisingly the Hound proved itself valuable in the early stage (in this case the value is in its ability to murder me).

Supplies are really, really expensive. So expensive in fact that taking a large amount of supplies and then selling them yields riches. Especially if you get nicely fit destroyers you can run around destroying all the pirate ships and sell off thousands of supplies and buy yourself a capital in good time. That's more or less what happened with me, since I saved up for a Medusa (The Astral is pretty freaking cool too with its PD drones and its 360 front shield).

I'm still trying to wrap my head around some aspects of Combat Readiness so I'll refrain from commenting on those mechanics. It seems like it's somewhat skill-based though, which I didn't fully realize when I had gotten my first carrier.

[Troll]

I found a bug during battle as well as a possibly not-a-bug but-not-fun-when-you-don't-know-about-it.

The thing is I restarted my Iron Mode Iron Man game and a while after playing and upgrading to a new shiny well equipped Onslaught, I entered combat and seeing no enemy I expected that I missedthe message about me winning and them running, so I pushed escape.
The not a bug thing is that pushing escape to close the Exit window exits the game (if that was intended, otherwise, it goes with what is said below).
The bug is that clicking no on the window also exits the game.

Basically, pressing escape during a fight (when the fight is still going on) will cause you to close the game.

[PCCL]

known bug, being looked into for 0.6.1a

[heskey30]

I've found that one of those phase frigates with the EMP emitter is one of the fastest ways to make money. Fly nothing else, crush little and medium sized pirate fleets, use almost no supplies... profit. It's also dangerous.

[Durandal4532]

I feel like the best way to address early difficulty is to simply allow for more sedate play options.

I'd like a choice between the daily grind of trading/mercantile pursuits and the thrill/immediate reward of managing to attack and salvage someone.

Allowing less combat-ready players a chance to build up a little nest egg and start getting into it with people with a more powerful fleet behind them would differentiate play styles, and serve as a sort of cushion for people. It would also emphasize that if you DO manage to take yourself from shuttle to dreadnaught with nothing but skilled piloting you're probably really cool.

[Alex]

Does the CR drop affect enemy frigates in battle also? Your own CR drop would be more justified that way, same way I wouldn't want to see the enemy with unlimited missiles and ammo.

Yep, it does.

*cough* trading/mining mechanics *cough* frigate vs. frigate combat is the fastest and hardest piloting in the game, and from what friends who i've had try the game tell me, people always just get stuck in a loop of fighting and dying when they start. They go after individual pirate frigates, and even if they win twice if they lose the third they effectively need to start over from a credit standpoint.

If there were price differences between prices in stations to take advantage of or mining in some form was implemented, people without extremely good piloting skills in a game they've never played before wouldnt feel so left out

I feel like the best way to address early difficulty is to simply allow for more sedate play options.

I'd like a choice between the daily grind of trading/mercantile pursuits and the thrill/immediate reward of managing to attack and salvage someone.

Allowing less combat-ready players a chance to build up a little nest egg and start getting into it with people with a more powerful fleet behind them would differentiate play styles, and serve as a sort of cushion for people. It would also emphasize that if you DO manage to take yourself from shuttle to dreadnaught with nothing but skilled piloting you're probably really cool.

That makes a lot of sense.

(Alex, do you care to comment here on whether fighter supply is working as intended, slightly broken and will be rebalanced, or actually bugged and will be calculated differently? There's maybe a couple of threads about it in suggestions or bug reports also, if here isn't the best place)

#2.

Overall though I'm really enjoying the new release - I haven't found it unduly difficult, if anything it's easier as well chosen fights can now provide a lot more credits a lot quicker through selling supplies, but there are probably more potential pitfalls if you do start failing too much.  I love the new logistics changes in general... the UI is okay, sometimes I preferred the old one (buying/selling ships is the main one), and I've no idea why the F1 tips aren't just always there, or indeed why the full logistics panel doesn't always display - can we get those as toggle options perhaps?  All in all though, worth the wait!

The tooltips are expandable just to highlight more important, high-level information first and reduce information overload. Likewise, for the logistics panel - when collapsed, it displays stuff that's most relevant while traveling. Personnel capacity etc, for example, really isn't since it doesn't generally change.

You put those elite brawlers in to demonstrate that the AI knows perfectly well when to use kinetic and when HE, din't you Alex? I'm so dead, again...

I might have

Oh, and a question: Is there really no way to suspend CR regeneration (except for fighters)? Why?

See here.

Spoiler

Some thoughts on the new stuff:

• When I have too few crew for my ships, there's no single number that says "this is how many more crew you need".  You can get it, it just takes realizing you need to mouse over the personel indicator on the tiny little fleet info in the lower right
• I like the summary fleet info in the lower right, but there should probably be a first-class UI page for all that information broken out it's so critical to what your doing (rather than having to hit F1 for each of the individual elements).  Maybe that would scare people who don't like number, but in SS if you're not paying attention to numbers you're going to have a bad time.
• The skill that gives you a "Burn" increase, it's description isn't clear what you'll get by investing in it for more than just the next level.  For example, if I'm at level 4 and I really want another +2 to destroyer speed, I'm not sure if I'll ever get that by investing all the way to level 10.  I need some sort of road map to help me plan allocation here.
  
• Again with the Burn speed skill, a "key" for the "X/X/X/X" portion would be helpful for people who haven't played the game a ton.  Just a simple "Frigate/Destroyer/Cruiser/Capital" would do.
• Maybe move some skills that are desirable to leadership (like the navigation related ones), right now the only really valuable one seems to be logistics.  Maybe add a skill that increases max CR by 1% per level?  It feels like all of the Must Have skills are in Tech.
  
• I wish the larger weapons sounds had more bass, the weapon sounds lack 'heft'
• The Cargo screen is misleading, it's called 'your cargo' but really only a few things in there are actually 'cargo'.  Fuel should probably just be a slider on the right indicating how much you've got, vs how much you can properly carry.  Personnel should be an icon & counter on the left for each of the types (marines and skill level), then the actual cargo-cargo in the middle.  It would be nice to have your max cargo capacity near the actual cargo 'area' but maybe that's because of my high rez.
• A pipe dream of mine, and those with big monitors in general would be to have a UI scalar, say make everything 120% of normal so I don't have to squint.

[close]

Thanks for the feedback - can't quite respond in detail write now, but wrote a couple of things down

[Nick XR]

Thanks for the feedback - can't quite respond in detail write now, but wrote a couple of things down

Thanks man!  What's in the game right now is super fun, you've got a real classic here

[Zibywan]

I've been testing the new release all day, and I just had my first serious negative experience. It went a little something like this...

• My fleet is comprised of an Aurora(flagship) a Lasher, and about 5 wings of talons
• Attack pirate supply fleet with a mothballed Conquest that I'm very interested in
• First fight goes about as expected, only my flagship and the Lasher make it out alive, but the pirate fleet is in ruins
• The pirates turn around and attack with their supply ships (Tarsus x4)
• As soon as the fight starts they retreat. My lasher and Aurora suffer a CR hit, and the lasher is now unuseable in combat
• The pirates attack with the Tarsus group again, again I send in the Aurora, again they retreat as the fight starts
• Repeat one more time, my Aurora is no longer able to fight
• The pirate fleet leave with their mothballed ships and 4 Tarsus freighters

I never had a chance to fire a single shot against the supply ships. They didn't fight, they just attacked, ran and drained my CR. There was no chance to try to take them out in a pursuit action, because they didn't flee, they just abused the CR mechanic.

Any ideas on how to fix that?

Also, I miss the "A" hotkey to repair my ships at stations, but that is a minor grievance in comparison.