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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Starsector 0.6a (Released) Patch Notes  (Read 553439 times)

xenoargh

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #735 on: September 10, 2013, 10:59:35 PM »

It's pretty soon, guys :)
Ahhh!

Well, I guess I need to push my last mod build before 0.6 and the Great Refactoring out right now then, so that everybody gets to try it before Soon™ happens.

<scurries off to prepare release>
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RawCode

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #736 on: September 11, 2013, 12:53:43 AM »

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ArkAngel

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #737 on: September 11, 2013, 05:05:52 AM »

It's pretty soon, guys :)
'Gasp!'  :o I just realise his soon doesn't have a tm. This has to mean its the soon as is its close kind of soon instead of the indefinite kind of soon!
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BHunterSEAL

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #738 on: September 11, 2013, 07:15:29 AM »

soon...

i will leave it here
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time

I guess I just don't understand why this sort of *** is acceptable in the games industry. In my line of work, if a client is expecting something, we will put in 90, 100, 110 hours a week to make it happen. More if necessary and for months on end if need be. We are expected to give clear and realistic milestones for deliverables and move mountains to meet them. Internally, mistakes, delays and poor communication are punished harshly: you will get chewed-out on by your team and your performance comp will suffer. Excuses are not tolerated. Delays in getting production data from the engineering team? Deal with it. Client sends you their financials as outputs crookedly-scanned on a 1982 Xerox machine? Deal with it. There's a bug in your model and 20 pages in the presentation need to be redone? Hope you've stocked up on Red Bull because the meeting is still tomorrow at 9:00 AM.

I'm not saying this is ideal, or that it's resulted in a particularly happy or healthy lifestyle for anyone I know, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around how the complete opposite is the norm in the software industry. Valve isn't the only offender, it's sadly par for the course at this point. Even when games do get finished, there are a lot of mainstream releases nowadays that are so buggy that if we put out something comparably shoddy, the entire team would be summarily fired.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 07:28:20 AM by BHunterSEAL »
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FasterThanSleepyfish

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #739 on: September 11, 2013, 07:21:30 AM »

You should consider looking for employment somewhere else, it's not right to be held responsible for other peoples mistakes. That's not workplace responsibility! In anycase, Alex is making sure the final product is polished enough so people can thoroughly enjoy it as he slaves away on the next version.
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xenoargh

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #740 on: September 11, 2013, 07:26:02 AM »

That, and game-dev <> commercial engineering dev.  Well, other than the death-marches and unrealistic expectations.

In all seriousness, I'd rather imagine Alex as getting enough sleep and having a reasonable work/life balance rather than imagine him tied to the tyranny of listening to people whine about when Soon is. 

We want a fun game here, and we aren't going to get it if the developer's burnt out; it's not like we (the people providing the VC) can just promote somebody willing to live on nicotine and stale donuts who is desperate for a 3% raise this year :)
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BHunterSEAL

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #741 on: September 11, 2013, 08:00:38 AM »

I certainly applaud Alex for what we call "managing expectations"--it's great that he hasn't blown deadlines or been silent in between updates. And his releases have been stable, relatively polished, and largely bug-free (certainly no truly game-breaking busts, here's lookin' at you Total War series).

But I do disagree with the decision to combine so many major revisions into one patch. Understanding that some changes are interrelated, going through the dev notes it appears there was enough clearly delineated content to release in several incremental updates. And, given the business model in use here, Alex would likely have profited from doing so: it's not just these forums that have gone a bit quiet, it's the half-dozen other places on the Internet where this game is discussed (how I and likely many others found this great game). The modding community would also have benefitted, but we should applaud Alex for releasing the new API early.

And yes, it's frustrating, I know. All the time, I come up with great (and some not-so-great) ideas that we simply don't have time to implement for the next meeting or deliverable. It pisses me off to no end, being at a client's offices and looking at a page and thinking to myself, "this analysis would have been so much better if we had just..." But at the end of the day, I'm glad I have people driving the process on my end that don't allow for our version of "feature creep"--otherwise, I don't think I'd ever finish a project!



*BTW, the intensity I described previously isn't unique to my firm but more of an industry-wide work culture. There are a lot of other great reasons why I absolutely love my job :)
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 08:03:11 AM by BHunterSEAL »
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #742 on: September 11, 2013, 10:29:47 AM »

But I do disagree with the decision to combine so many major revisions into one patch. Understanding that some changes are interrelated, going through the dev notes it appears there was enough clearly delineated content to release in several incremental updates. And, given the business model in use here, Alex would likely have profited from doing so: it's not just these forums that have gone a bit quiet, it's the half-dozen other places on the Internet where this game is discussed (how I and likely many others found this great game). The modding community would also have benefitted, but we should applaud Alex for releasing the new API early.

I definitely agree that the current update cycle took too long. (And I suppose it's still "taking", not "took" - for now!) But thinking back on it, I  don't see any way to have reasonably made a release along the way. The only separate chunk is hyperspace, and that was only implemented a little while ago. Everything else - CR, logistics, campaign battle mechanics, new fighter mechanics, UI revamp - are all tied together. Maybe one or two of them could be released separately, but the amount of extra work to stub out the things they tie into would take too much time to make it an attractive option. One way to look at it is you could have all these features in smaller chunks along the way, but it'd literally take half again as long to get all of them.

To your larger point, I don't think this is actually an industry-wide attitude in game development. Many AAA companies are known for being in a state of constant crunch, with 80+ hour weeks and all that comes with it. I think where game development differs from other software development (or making a physical object, I suppose) is that you don't know exactly what you're making until you finally get there, unless what you're making is incredibly formulaic and by the numbers. Otherwise, a lot of the time is spent nailing down nebulous things like "is this fun", "could this be more fun", and "does this fit in with the overall vision", and it's simply impossible to predict how long that's going to take.

I think Valve is one of the few big companies to recognize this - or to at least act on it - and "Valve Time" is a direct result of that. They're not saying "we can't be bothered to make an estimate", they're saying "we can't make an estimate, and if we had to and were held to it, the end product would suffer".

Another point is that in software dev (and I imagine elsewhere, too, though I can't speak to that from experience), working extreme hours doesn't mean higher productivity. From personal experience, there's certainly a point where more hours is a net negative in terms of productivity, though you can manage that to a point by saving "dumb" stuff for when you're not feeling too sharp. I also recall reading about a large game dev company that made everyone go home at 4pm - and had an increase in productivity as a result. I can't remember what company that was - Relic, I think? Could be wrong, not finding that article in google; it was about two years back.

Anyway, that's certainly not conclusive, and is an aside anyway, because the I think the hours worked are secondary to being unable to make accurate estimates. Rather, consistently extreme hours are a reaction to making incorrect estimates and then trying to meet them - a reaction that's counter-productive in the long run.
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Nick XR

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #743 on: September 11, 2013, 10:52:07 AM »

soon...

i will leave it here
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time

I guess I just don't understand why this sort of *** is acceptable in the games industry. In my line of work, if a client is expecting something, we will put in 90, 100, 110 hours a week to make it happen. More if necessary and for months on end if need be. We are expected to give clear and realistic milestones for deliverables and move mountains to meet them. Internally, mistakes, delays and poor communication are punished harshly: you will get chewed-out on by your team and your performance comp will suffer. Excuses are not tolerated. Delays in getting production data from the engineering team? Deal with it. Client sends you their financials as outputs crookedly-scanned on a 1982 Xerox machine? Deal with it. There's a bug in your model and 20 pages in the presentation need to be redone? Hope you've stocked up on Red Bull because the meeting is still tomorrow at 9:00 AM.

I'm not saying this is ideal, or that it's resulted in a particularly happy or healthy lifestyle for anyone I know, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around how the complete opposite is the norm in the software industry. Valve isn't the only offender, it's sadly par for the course at this point. Even when games do get finished, there are a lot of mainstream releases nowadays that are so buggy that if we put out something comparably shoddy, the entire team would be summarily fired.

Creative development is pretty different from developing a shopping cart, or billing system, or the typical boring programming plumbing (integrate these two unstable systems into one stable system).  People have an idea what they want when they say "I want an inventory management system", but when they say "I want a space game" the solution space is a lot larger.  I'm guessing Alex could rewrite everything in a fraction of the time he's spent actually creating it.  The delta between the two is the cost of the creative process and that's the difference between apples and oranges.

noego

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #744 on: September 11, 2013, 10:59:10 AM »

I definitely agree that the current update cycle took too long.

It's been a long wait, for sure, but (since Valve has been mentioned) then I've been waiting for Half Life 2 Episode 3 for years and I'm not complaining. If the update is good (and so far I don't see signs that it won't be), the wait will be worth it.
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Gothars

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #745 on: September 11, 2013, 11:02:27 AM »

I definitely agree that the current update cycle took too long.

I did not want to ask this just yet, but since we are on the topic: Do you suppose that the next update after 0.61b will hit release faster than 0.61a? Or should we prepare for a decelerated release cycle for, well, the rest of the development? I would imagine that the issue of this patch, heavily interconnected mechanics, only gets more pronounced as the game progresses towards completion.
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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #746 on: September 11, 2013, 11:04:57 AM »

I completely agree with Alex here.

Working overtime definitely hurts the end product in the long run, as one person can only do so much on one day before losing focus and starts making errors.
Not to mention the burned out workers who get to sit home with a massive depression, which will then contribute a full 0% of work time for as long as they see a psychologist.

If I had a company I'd ban overwork time altogether. If some job can't be done without overwork then employers need to hire more people or take a good look at how they handle things.

And promises should only be made if they can be kept. It's good that Alex is not giving any dates. I'd rather be kept in the dark than be disappointed over and over again because deadlines can't be reached.
/sorryifeltlikerantingbecauseimanagedtoburnouttwiceinmylifetimealreadyduetoevilemployers
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Alex

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #747 on: September 11, 2013, 11:52:04 AM »

I'm guessing Alex could rewrite everything in a fraction of the time he's spent actually creating it.  The delta between the two is the cost of the creative process and that's the difference between apples and oranges.

You know, I almost said that exact thing. There's so much iteration, and taking that out of the process would be huge. Too bad you can't just get everything right on the first try, eh? :)


I did not want to ask this just yet, but since we are on the topic: Do you suppose that the next update after 0.61b will hit release faster than 0.61a? Or should we prepare for a decelerated release cycle for, well, the rest of the development? I would imagine that the issue of this patch, heavily interconnected mechanics, only gets more pronounced as the game progresses towards completion.

(Minor matter of nomenclature: the "a" stands for alpha, so the next mini-release be 0.6.1a. "b" would be beta.)

It's a tough question to answer. I definitely *want* to have a shorter release cycle, and will do my best to make that happen. Hopefully it'll be possible to add one or two pieces at a time; I'll have a better idea after 0.6a is out and I have some time to plan. I have been thinking ahead a bit, of course, but haven't nailed down just what the next release will contain. There's definitely the issue of features being interrelated. Just as an example: proper factions and proper dialog options go hand in hand, and once you get into, say, the proper planet interaction UI, it's tempting to get in more of the features that go there rather than iterate that UI a few extra times.

Tempting, but not unavoidable. I think it'll be less of a problem than for 0.6a, where the interaction between the combat and campaign layers being reworked pretty much completely was what made it so much of an all-or-nothing deal.

So, I guess we'll see. I can't make any promises, but it's definitely something that's on my mind.

Working overtime definitely hurts the end product in the long run, as one person can only do so much on one day before losing focus and starts making errors.

Honestly, I think some overtime is fine. Things come up, emergencies happen, and sometimes you just need that extra bit of effort to get over the hump. It's when overtime is the rule rather than the exception that you have a real problem.

/sorryifeltlikerantingbecauseimanagedtoburnouttwiceinmylifetimealreadyduetoevilemployers

Ugh, sorry to heat that! Getting burned out if pretty horrible - if you haven't experienced it yourself, it's tough to imagine just how bad it is.

It's been a long wait, for sure, but (since Valve has been mentioned) then I've been waiting for Half Life 2 Episode 3 for years and I'm not complaining. If the update is good (and so far I don't see signs that it won't be), the wait will be worth it.

:)
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Uomoz

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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #748 on: September 11, 2013, 11:54:59 AM »

Being a huge valve fanboi I can only say this: valve time, best time. StarSoon FTW.
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Re: Starsector 0.6a (In Development) Patch Notes
« Reply #749 on: September 11, 2013, 12:19:46 PM »

I believe you mean THQ?  We HAD to be out of studio by 4pm.  I always thought it was due to security with the current build data but now you mention it, we did have a lot more social time :)
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