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News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Poll

Increase OP on some frigates (counterparts of vanilla frigates)

Yes, please up the OP
- 85 (75.2%)
No, leave it as it is now
- 23 (20.4%)
No, other...
- 5 (4.4%)

Total Members Voted: 113


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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] Tore Up Plenty - Vanilla Friendly Mod - Campaign+Nexerelin  (Read 396586 times)

Erick Doe

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Not planned. I don't normally like being dependant on other mods.
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Erick Doe

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Spoiler
[close]
Old - New Overlord
The new one gets flightdecks, a built in Hellbore and an extra mount. Its also a bit bigger. It is supposed to be a capitalship afterall.
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Erick Doe

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I need your input!

So I'm torn (up plenty :D) between increasing the Ordnance Points on a whole bunch of frigates, or leaving them as they are now. See, the ordnance points on a lot of TuP frigates (Strikers, Wrestlers, Timberwolfs) are slightly lower than that of their vanilla counterparts, to offset their ability to actually mount more weapons, basically making them more useful and tougher than their vanilla counterparts as you level up. Now, I already increased it for the Foxhound to be equal to the vanilla hound's 30 OP. But then HELMUT made a comment that the Foxhound is a bit overpowered in his experience and that I should nerf it a little. So should I reduce its OP again to 27 and keep all other ships as they are now. Or should I up it?

Note, the Foxhound is at 30 OP now because I kept getting comments to up it. Now I basically get a comment to lower it. What do you think? Please vote in the poll.  I'd also really appreciate some feedback ontop of the poll; your reasons for why you think I should or shouldn't increase the OP a little.

Thank you. :)

I am very happy though that in Dark.Revenant's mod feedback thread TuP always scores really high on balance. That gives me some confidence.  ;)
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Uomoz

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I think you should tone down the pd drones on the foxhound. That system is supposed to go on destroyers, on a fast frifate is like having 5 more free machineguns (basically more then +10 free op). Maybe make a custom system with 1-2 drones? The other stats are ok imho.
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Erick Doe

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I think you should tone down the pd drones on the foxhound. That system is supposed to go on destroyers, on a fast frifate is like having 5 more free machineguns (basically more then +10 free op). Maybe make a custom system with 1-2 drones? The other stats are ok imho.

That is a possibility.

I've added a "No, other..." option to the poll.
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JDCollie

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I think you should tone down the pd drones on the foxhound. That system is supposed to go on destroyers, on a fast frifate is like having 5 more free machineguns (basically more then +10 free op). Maybe make a custom system with 1-2 drones? The other stats are ok imho.
The Problem
Personally, I think the Foxhound is victim of synergy. It's the combination of being fast, having drones, and good weapon arcs that make it a terror on the field. Any one of those traits on a frigate is powerful. Having all three gives us the shield munching monstrosity we have today.

Still, I agree with Uomoz and HELMUT that the drones are the biggest part of the problem. Five flux-free machine guns in addition to whatever you mount on the hardpoints make it dangerous alone, and absolutely lethal in packs against anything that depends on shields. (And good gods, don't try it with those new plasma flamethrowers  . . . unless you like barbecues and murder >:D  )Essentially you have a Hound with it's very own wing of Talons.


My (stolen) Solution
I like Uomoz's idea -- a custom drone system of 1-2 drones would greatly reduce the damage output.

My Less-Stolen-But-Most-Likely-Stupid Solution
Another thought i just had: at the moment, don't those drones inflict kinetic damage? (Hence the shield mauling) If the damage type were switched to fragmentation, that would dramatically reduce the Foxhound's drone effectiveness against shield based opponents while still retaining the point defense capacity, yes?



And now . . .

*JD casts . . . WALL O' TEXT!!!!*

About Tup Balance
As to the balance of TuP ships and their ordinance points, I'm not necessarily sure that more mounts = more power, especially if the weapons themselves are properly balanced. That being said, I've never felt completely crippled by the OP allotment on any of the TuP ships. Have I felt restricted? Absolutely. Unable to fulfill the ship's intended role? Not so far.

Honestly, I think it comes down to the flavor of the TuP shipset itself. These aren't Tri-tachyon ships of the line. Hell, they aren't even Hegemony production cruisers; they're the salvaged, scavenged, held-together-by-bubblegum-and-grit kind of ships that smugglers, traders, miners, and pirates would make and use. Most of the ships probably predate their crew by at least a generation. I interpret OP to kind of represent the capacity of ships systems (CPU, power generation, etc) It makes sense that these ships would lack the efficient and powerful (or at least well maintained) power generators and systems that higher-end ships possess.

Most importantly though, TuP ships fill an important role in the modded Starsector universe in regards to both gameplay and lore (especially in UsS). They provide newer players with a variety of ships to fight against and use which won't smash newbies to pieces, which can be utilized by a logistically unskilled commander, and won't bankrupt them if lost. Sometimes you don't need the newest system defense carrier or anti-battleship dreadnought. You just need a ship that will still fly true.



TL:DR
TuP ships (aside from the Foxhound) fill a well balanced role both lore and gameplay wise. I vote that you leave the OP be, but that's just me. :D
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Uomoz

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Very cool post JD.
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JDCollie

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Very cool post JD.

Thanks :D

Also, I didn't think of this till just now, but these ships will fit in even better with the incoming economy. We'll actually have down-on-their-luck traders, and TuP has the ships to outfit them.
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HELMUT

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Also, I didn't think of this till just now, but these ships will fit in even better with the incoming economy.

Good point, it's very likely that SS update will bring a big change to the vanilla experience and by extensions, mods. Maybe TuP ships will have their place there.

Changing the machine guns drones with Vulcan drones would indeed make them less effective against shields. However even with Frag damage, a swarm of Foxhounds will just take one or two seconds more to overload shields and unlike kinetic weapons, Vulcans will murder everything with their hull open.

Reducing the drones seems like a reasonable nerf. 1 drone seems a bit too harsh, 2 or 3 perhaps? That's still like 6/9 OPs missing.
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JDCollie

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Also, I didn't think of this till just now, but these ships will fit in even better with the incoming economy.

Good point, it's very likely that SS update will bring a big change to the vanilla experience and by extensions, mods. Maybe TuP ships will have their place there.

Changing the machine guns drones with Vulcan drones would indeed make them less effective against shields. However even with Frag damage, a swarm of Foxhounds will just take one or two seconds more to overload shields and unlike kinetic weapons, Vulcans will murder everything with their hull open.

Reducing the drones seems like a reasonable nerf. 1 drone seems a bit too harsh, 2 or 3 perhaps? That's still like 6/9 OPs missing.

I might actually even consider a triple change. Make the drones frag, reduce their number, and remove the capacity to "free roam". That way the drones are still really dangerous in the intended role of point defense, but they'd be more dangerous to use in an aggressive fashion, since they would require the Foxhound in question to stay in close combat range to keep their firepower applied. (As well as potentially give opponents the opportunity to disengage if they have the ability to temporarily outrun a Foxhound by some means)

I don't know if there is a way to balance a wolfpack of foxhounds though without seriously damaging the ship' functionality in all other contexts or removing everything unique.



Actually. . . I don't know if it is possible, (I'd assume it probably isn't at the moment) but what if the drones were an actually limited resource? ( I.E., you have to have 10 drones in your fleet inventory in order to have your Foxhound's drones fully stocked, and any destroyed in combat would be removed )

Then again, that would be a lot of work logistically for the player just to use one ship if it were only integrated for the foxhound, and on the other it would seriously nerf the economic viability of a huge swath of drone using ships. Destroying the balance of twenty ships in order to fix one I guess might not be such a good idea. :(
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Schwartz

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Well, the big nerf that isn't a nerf would be to simply up its Logistics requirement to 1,5 or 2. Which is sensible, considering the package deal you get with its combat abilities and cargo space. Also it would make sense to remove the roam ability from the drones. A frigate with drones is unusual to begin with, maybe the link-up is a bit patchwork and not strong enough to bridge a distance. Everybody loves the Foxhound, would be a shame to see it reduced to a puppy.
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M Hoyt

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A low-tech frigate with drones is unusual, at least.

Switching the drones to vulcans from LMG's would probably be enough.

ed: Granted that vulcans are actually more effective DPS against armor, but in my experience, the challenge with LMG drones/fighters is that they push your flux through the roof and that prevents you from shooting them down or using a strike weapon to kill the foxhound/mothership.  These drones are quite easy to shoot down with Burst PD lasers and presumably with thumpers and flak as well.

Don't these drones (all 5 summed) have a theoretical sDPS of 1560 and aDPS 390 right now?  It's easy to see how Helmut could make these things stomp everything.  Switching to vulcans changes it to 625 aDPS and sDPS.  Vulcans also have less range, which would probably make it harder for them to reach their max DPS.

I don't think the armor damage increase is as important as the shield damage decrease in this context.  The medium and missile mount on the Foxhound give it the HE or strike capability to force an opponent to generate hard flux or punish them for taking the LMG shots on armor.  By decreasing the shield damage, though, you allow an opponent more time to eliminate the drones and probably force the foxhound to mount kinetic weapons.

The logistic cost could definitely come up to 1.5 and that would make it more comparable to the other drone frigates and hound variants.  That would also be a 33% decrease in pack size!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 03:46:19 PM by M Hoyt »
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Admiral Loverod

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Actually, the low OP values might be a problem if you're trying to make your ships scale into the late game. A TuP frigate get more useful as the player gets higher level, but so do other ships. TuP ships will still have lower OP than vanilla ships in the late game.
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Erick Doe

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Actually, the low OP values might be a problem if you're trying to make your ships scale into the late game. A TuP frigate get more useful as the player gets higher level, but so do other ships. TuP ships will still have lower OP than vanilla ships in the late game.

The difference is that TuP frigates will be able to mount more weapons in the late game. These frigates already have better flux numbers than vanilla's frigates, so the few exta OP points a vanilla frigate might spend on flux won't give them much of an advantage. Though more hullmods potentially is.
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Gothars

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I agree with JD, too.
Your mod, Erick, is somewhat unique in that it fills a power niche slight below vanilla balance, while still fitting snugly into vanilla style and lore. It thus manages to realign the whole vanilla balance construct like no mod with stronger than or equal to vanilla balanced ships ever could. It's like the Buffalo MK.IIs extended family.   ...or in short, it's cool because it makes vanilla ships feel stronger :)

And then to make the ships grow with the player is a great concept and guarantees that you ships end up as much more than Buffalo brothers. I think if you want to change anything, you should try to pronounce that more, not fix it.

What's a bit unsightly are the many free weapon slots you'll usually have in the beginning with a TUP ship. How about some wielded-together slabs (no damage weapons) to cover them up?
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