Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14

Author Topic: Combat Readiness  (Read 108301 times)

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 23986
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #165 on: March 02, 2013, 12:15:30 PM »

Not sure I'd consider finding a problem where others don't see one a compliment, necessarily, but I'll take it :) Glad you like the idea!

Increasing the complexity and deepness of the game is not what I define "finding problems".

Right; if anything, that's "creating problems" :)
Logged

Harabeck

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 35
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #166 on: March 02, 2013, 07:10:01 PM »

Well, I think depth is always a good thing, but complexity is often bad. Complexity can create depth, but you have to balance the two.
Logged

Uomoz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2663
  • 'womo'dz
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #167 on: March 02, 2013, 11:29:25 PM »

How can complexity in the game engine be bad? It's up to Alex to transform this complexity in an enjoyable form, but the problem of modern games is not "excessive complexity" for sure.
Logged

Gothars

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4403
  • Eschewing obfuscatory verbosity.
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #168 on: March 03, 2013, 04:53:00 AM »

The new engagement system may already prevent this, but since I don't know here's my concern anyway. It's potentially one of those "Boring but effective" tactics. If you have a fleet of many small vessels, you can potentially wear down a far superior fleet of few big ships. Engage, deploy one frigate (forcing the enemy to deploy his cruiser or so) and retreat. If you repeat this your enemy might run out of CR long before you do. Just something to consider and make unappealing.


How can complexity in the game engine be bad? It's up to Alex to transform this complexity in an enjoyable form, but the problem of modern games is not "excessive complexity" for sure.

Complexity is basically how much stuff is in a game, how many different mechanics there are and how many rules to learn. An example for a  very complex game would be a fully accurate flight simulator where all keys on the keyboard have a function. Here you'll have to spend hours with the manual to even get your plane of the ground.

Depth is what arises from complexity, it is how the mechanics mesh with each other and create opportunities for the player to make important decisions and have new experiences. You need some complexity to create depth, but the art is to get as much depth as possible with as little complexity as possible. An example would be Chess, or even better the Japanese Go. You can pick up the rules within minutes, they are not complex, but nobody would say those games lack depth.

So, complexity, or rather the justified fear of complexity, is still the culprit for the blandness of many modern games. To optimally use complexity to create depth is a difficult art, something you can't easily buy with money. So a publisher has little control over this. I think from their point of view the only way to make sure a game doesn't end up too complex is to limit it so much that there's no room for depth either. (This is overly simplified of course, there are many more aspects to consider.)

If anyone wants to continue this discussion please open a new thread.
Logged
The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.

Gaizokubanou

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 347
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #169 on: March 03, 2013, 11:48:40 AM »

The new engagement system may already prevent this, but since I don't know here's my concern anyway. It's potentially one of those "Boring but effective" tactics. If you have a fleet of many small vessels, you can potentially wear down a far superior fleet of few big ships. Engage, deploy one frigate (forcing the enemy to deploy his cruiser or so) and retreat. If you repeat this your enemy might run out of CR long before you do. Just something to consider and make unappealing.

Actually, I think this could be a blessing in disguise.  This will mean that there will be a reason to balance your fleet out, instead of just massing the latest and the biggest ships available.

It is very 'gamey' though.  If every ships in a fleet took small CR loss regardless of their participation in the battle (consider it a cost of preparation), it would solve more extreme versions of this tactic.
Logged

Talkie Toaster

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 256
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #170 on: March 03, 2013, 12:36:01 PM »

Actually, I think this could be a blessing in disguise.  This will mean that there will be a reason to balance your fleet out, instead of just massing the latest and the biggest ships available.
Ah, yes- it gives you a more strategic reason to have escorts. Harassed by frigates? Deploy your escort to counter them. No escort? You get gradually worn down.
Logged

Gothars

  • Global Moderator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4403
  • Eschewing obfuscatory verbosity.
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #171 on: March 03, 2013, 01:01:29 PM »

Forcing you to have a diverse fleet, that's a rather nice thought, actually. Even if the AI does not actively try to wear you down (which is unlikely), it prevents you from consecutively attacking many small fleets with superior ships to grind.

However, my concern was about the reversed scenario where you have the small ships. I guess it could be easily avoided by penalizing all retreating ships with a CR loss.
Logged
The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.

Alex

  • Administrator
  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 23986
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #172 on: March 03, 2013, 03:02:11 PM »

Right, definitely something I'm aware of and working through the details of.

However, my concern was about the reversed scenario where you have the small ships. I guess it could be easily avoided by penalizing all retreating ships with a CR loss.

That's likely going to be part of it, but I don't think it's quite enough. Losing all the CR on a Hound could still be far less important than losing 20% CR on an Onslaught, after all.
Logged

Uomoz

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2663
  • 'womo'dz
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #173 on: March 03, 2013, 05:35:45 PM »

Right, definitely something I'm aware of and working through the details of.

However, my concern was about the reversed scenario where you have the small ships. I guess it could be easily avoided by penalizing all retreating ships with a CR loss.

That's likely going to be part of it, but I don't think it's quite enough. Losing all the CR on a Hound could still be far less important than losing 20% CR on an Onslaught, after all.

Reducing the CR deploy cost for ships if a fight results in an enemy retreat?
Logged

Gaizokubanou

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 347
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #174 on: March 03, 2013, 07:44:24 PM »

Reducing the CR deploy cost for ships if a fight results in an enemy retreat?

That could encourage players into letting few ships retreat just so that they take lower CR hit.
Logged

PCCL

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • still gunnyfreak
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #175 on: March 03, 2013, 07:49:14 PM »

maybe you choose whether or not to give chase and only take more cr hit if you do but deal more after battle damage
Logged
mmm.... tartiflette

zakastra

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 216
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #176 on: March 05, 2013, 03:06:21 AM »

This makes sense, if the retreating fleet are frantically pushing their engines to escape, it only follows suit that its going to take a lot out of the pursuing fleet to hunt them down (Assuming there isn't a huge disparity in relative fleet speeds)
Logged
Oh DRM, bane of the carrier captain...

Reapy

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #177 on: March 05, 2013, 03:55:29 PM »

One thought that jumped out as I was reading the blog post was what you mentioned about making certain ships the 'cheap workhorse' of galaxy, not really the most effective, but easy and cheap to repair and get its CR stat up quickly. It is a really nice mechanic to bridge the gap.

It is funny in ways I can liken a lot of the balance and gameplay here like an MMO, you sort are dealing with DPS burst vs slow burn, effects of movement, taking/armor stats, healing incoming (flux regen), kiting, etc.  The CR on frigates fits in neatly with enrage timers, which are used on a lot of boss fights, the idea being that you can now have avoidable mechanics that you can dance around forever if you are good enough, but have a 'soft' time limit to do so. Very nice I think.
Logged

Jazwana

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 108
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #178 on: March 05, 2013, 04:12:35 PM »

Maybe have an option to deploy your ship(s) at a severely reduced CR level in-fight but then take less of a CR loss penalty after the fight?  That way if you're being nipped by a pack of hounds in your onslaught maybe you don't bring everyone to battle stations but just man a few guns here, few guns there, and keep the shield generator at 50% while you continue your merry way.

Logged

MindsEye

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 91
    • View Profile
Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #179 on: March 05, 2013, 07:46:11 PM »

Im sure you guys have thought of conecting thrust/speed with flux right? Could be another alternative way of balancing out frigs. If they use high speeds to pick at larger ships their flux takes a hit and consequently their firepower/defense. Larger ships would not take as much of a hit because they dont reach critical speeds.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 10 11 [12] 13 14