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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Combat Readiness  (Read 108318 times)

Gaizokubanou

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #150 on: February 25, 2013, 08:32:02 AM »

Until the "real" campaign mechanics and content reach a critical mass, though, things might get a little awkward. I'll definitely have to pare down from the overflowing state Corvus is in right now, but I'm also not planning on spending a whole lot of time building temporary scaffolding around these "real" mechanics. So, you might see a build where a lot of ships or weapons simply aren't available in whatever corner of the Sector it features, that sort of thing.

Will currently completed ships/weapons still be in the installation for those who just want to mess around (as in, could we just edit some campaign/save files to access those ships)?  Either way it's alpha so there is no logical qualm to be had with your decision but it would be a small but nice bonus :)

I concur with you naufrago.  We can always find some justification to fit CR bonus into any of the aptitude.  So might as well as go for balance/fun reason.  And since leadership is most barren, it would fit in there nicely as some sort of 'administrative skill' deal.  If it spills over into other aptitudes, since they are mostly crowded (minus industry), same deal, should be some bonus but probably not a major skill.
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #151 on: February 25, 2013, 10:01:50 AM »

Maybe it would be good idea to make minimal crew requirements less of a hard cut with the help of CR. It always felt quite strange that, in effect, one single crewmen is all that divides 100% efficiency from total incapacity. Even now the state of under-crewed ships is "not combat ready", since that is a real parameter in the next release, why not use it? Maybe lower the base CR a under-crewed ship can archive, so it drops continuously from the normal ~50% at minimal crew requirements to 0% at ~75% of minimal crew requirements. I would not even mint if you had to increase those min requirements  to balance that out, it would just feel more natural.

But maybe something like this is already planned anyway, you did not go into detail about the relationship of crew number and CR...

..maybe I should have started this with a question, ha



Would that (finally) introduce a major performance difference to carriers? Like the Gemini being able to refit 5 wings and the Astral 50?  
Not quite certain how the details will pan out, but that seems likely.
Yay :)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 11:26:28 AM by Gothars »
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Alex

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #152 on: February 25, 2013, 05:47:14 PM »

Will currently completed ships/weapons still be in the installation for those who just want to mess around (as in, could we just edit some campaign/save files to access those ships)?  Either way it's alpha so there is no logical qualm to be had with your decision but it would be a small but nice bonus :)

Oh, I wouldn't go through the trouble of actually taking stuff out. That would 1) take time and 2) be far too mean.

Maybe it would be good idea to make minimal crew requirements less of a hard cut with the help of CR. It always felt quite strange that, in effect, one single crewmen is all that divides 100% efficiency from total incapacity. Even now the state of under-crewed ships is "not combat ready", since that is a real parameter in the next release, why not use it? Maybe lower the base CR a under-crewed ship can archive, so it drops continuously from the normal ~50% at minimal crew requirements to 0% at ~75% of minimal crew requirements. I would not even mint if you had to increase those min requirements  to balance that out, it would just feel more natural.

But maybe something like this is already planned anyway, you did not go into detail about the relationship of crew number and CR...

..maybe I should have started this with a question, ha

Right :) The way I have it set up now is the crew fraction modifies both the maximum CR and the current CR. So, if you have an Onslaught at 80% CR out of 100% maximum, and you jettison half the crew, your CR instantly goes to 40%, while the maximum drops down to 50%. The CR will then recover up to 50%, and go back up above that once you get more crew.

The crew fraction is not taking crew level into account at the moment (i.e., if you have 10 green crew or 10 elites, doesn't matter for that specific calculation) because the crew level is already reflected in both the maximum and the current CR values.

Since <10% CR means you can't deploy the ship, in the absolute best case scenario (meaning, elite crew and a really good captain) a ship can deploy with 10% crew. Most ships would probably need about in the 20% range, assuming their CR is at its maximum, and more if it's lower.
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Cycerin

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #153 on: February 25, 2013, 05:51:43 PM »

So hyped about this and the combat/campaign layer transition changes. ;D
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factotum

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #154 on: February 26, 2013, 06:41:32 AM »

It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning for introducing it, which basically seems to be "We want to stop people doing boring but effective things". Surely it should be up to the player if they choose to take an hour to destroy a fleet?
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #155 on: February 26, 2013, 07:11:59 AM »

It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I agree with the reasoning for introducing it, which basically seems to be "We want to stop people doing boring but effective things". Surely it should be up to the player if they choose to take an hour to destroy a fleet?

In most cases where I found myself in that situation it was not much of a choice, though. I messed up, cot caught by a bigger fleet and could not retreat for some reason or another (EG under-crewed ships in tow). So the choice was between spending half an hour circling around bigger ships to tire them out, or give up on the progress I made in the hour before.

To say it more general, a player could feel forced to make a choice towards a boring play-stile because it gives him advantages in the game's reward system. It is better game design to make inherently interesting activities beneficial for the player.


Would that (finally) introduce a major performance difference to carriers? Like the Gemini being able to refit 5 wings and the Astral 50?  
Not quite certain how the details will pan out, but that seems likely.

I'm sure you're aware of it, there will have to be some way to limit the CR drain fighter repair would impose on carriers. Especially multi-purpose ships like the Odyssey or Venture would seriously suffer without it. I would hate a situation where suddenly my capital's engines begin to flicker because some Talon wing comes back for repairs every 15 seconds. Maybe  just a lower limit specific for every class (like 5% on a Condor, 25% on an Odyssey). Or a manual toggle. Mh...That could even be combined with a launch toggle button *cough*
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 07:14:31 AM by Gothars »
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sdmike1

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #156 on: February 26, 2013, 07:17:02 AM »

« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 07:23:39 AM by sdmike1 »
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Lanvrik

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #157 on: February 27, 2013, 12:19:02 AM »

Wondering if hull modifications have been considered as factors for combat readiness?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 04:52:49 AM by Lanvrik »
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Thana

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #158 on: March 01, 2013, 12:44:59 AM »

I only now saw this blog post. Gotta say, I really like this idea. I'm in general a fan of things being on a sliding scale rather than discrete or especially binary, and both the in-character reasoning and the gameplay aspects of this make a whole lotta sense to me.

In other words, Alex, you've done it again. You've seen a problem where most people wouldn't even notice one, and developed an effective, elegant solution for it that makes the game even better than it was before. Kudos to you, man! You rock!

I keep saying this, but most developers should take a look at Fractal Softworks for a model of how to do things. You may be a small house, but damned if your professionality isn't leaps and bounds above industry standards. (And I'm not even saying this because I agree with every single design decision made, but the ones where I disagree are few and far between as well as genuine differences of opinion.)
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Flare

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #159 on: March 01, 2013, 02:26:06 AM »

Would there be a way to tell a crew of a ship which functions they need to put at high priority when supplies are low? For example, I'm running low on supplies, and I tell my freighter to forget about maintaining the guns and just spend all your time on the engines when I'm plowing through pirate territory.

Heck, this could be done even without being low on supplies, it would at least be a way of mitigating some of that risk through preparation of some sort beforehand.
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sdmike1

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #160 on: March 01, 2013, 07:14:44 AM »

Would there be a way to tell a crew of a ship which functions they need to put at high priority when supplies are low? For example, I'm running low on supplies, and I tell my freighter to forget about maintaining the guns and just spend all your time on the engines when I'm plowing through pirate territory.

Heck, this could be done even without being low on supplies, it would at least be a way of mitigating some of that risk through preparation of some sort beforehand.
Or even being able to say "Hey make sure that ship X Y and Z are on combat alert" giving them a boost in CR at the cost of supplies or CR from other ships in the fleet?

Alex

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #161 on: March 02, 2013, 09:04:00 AM »

Wondering if hull modifications have been considered as factors for combat readiness?

It's a distinct possibility.


Would that (finally) introduce a major performance difference to carriers? Like the Gemini being able to refit 5 wings and the Astral 50? 
Not quite certain how the details will pan out, but that seems likely.

I'm sure you're aware of it, there will have to be some way to limit the CR drain fighter repair would impose on carriers. Especially multi-purpose ships like the Odyssey or Venture would seriously suffer without it. I would hate a situation where suddenly my capital's engines begin to flicker because some Talon wing comes back for repairs every 15 seconds. Maybe  just a lower limit specific for every class (like 5% on a Condor, 25% on an Odyssey). Or a manual toggle. Mh...That could even be combined with a launch toggle button *cough*

Right... yeah. Could just say that carrier CR doesn't dip into malfunction range due to refits (i.e. they stop 'em at that point), but too early to really talk about. Still not sure what form this is going to take.

I only now saw this blog post. Gotta say, I really like this idea. I'm in general a fan of things being on a sliding scale rather than discrete or especially binary, and both the in-character reasoning and the gameplay aspects of this make a whole lotta sense to me.

In other words, Alex, you've done it again. You've seen a problem where most people wouldn't even notice one, and developed an effective, elegant solution for it that makes the game even better than it was before. Kudos to you, man! You rock!

Not sure I'd consider finding a problem where others don't see one a compliment, necessarily, but I'll take it :) Glad you like the idea!

Would there be a way to tell a crew of a ship which functions they need to put at high priority when supplies are low? For example, I'm running low on supplies, and I tell my freighter to forget about maintaining the guns and just spend all your time on the engines when I'm plowing through pirate territory.

Heck, this could be done even without being low on supplies, it would at least be a way of mitigating some of that risk through preparation of some sort beforehand.

I'd say no. To my mind, that's going a bit too deep into managing things that aren't necessarily all that much fun to manage, and that you'd then have to manage since you can.
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Thana

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #162 on: March 02, 2013, 11:02:42 AM »

Not sure I'd consider finding a problem where others don't see one a compliment, necessarily, but I'll take it :) Glad you like the idea!

'course it is. I mean, refining things that have been done before is nothing to be sneezed at, but looking at stuff and going "hey, maybe this doesn't have to be the way everyone expects it to be..." is definitely a talent as well.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 12:05:04 PM by Thana »
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Uomoz

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #163 on: March 02, 2013, 11:52:24 AM »

Not sure I'd consider finding a problem where others don't see one a compliment, necessarily, but I'll take it :) Glad you like the idea!

Increasing the complexity and deepness of the game is not what I define "finding problems".
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Gothars

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Re: Combat Readiness
« Reply #164 on: March 02, 2013, 12:06:53 PM »

Increasing the complexity and deepness of the game is not what I define "finding problems".

I'd say increasing the deepness without increasing the complexity (much) is they key. And that's what the CR mechanic promises to archive.

Otherwise you end up with very deep but also far too complex games like Dwarf Fortress.
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The game was completed 8 years ago and we get a free expansion every year.

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